This isn't in response to any single post about this, but it was inspired by them, and just my general reaction to it.
As someone who loves christmas and winter, it is really disappointing to see all the people getting their knickers in a twist because a skin has a vaguely 'santa hat' shaped hat.
Even without there being a long tradition of those hats being used in cold weather (why do you think santa is often depicted wearing it? Lives at the north pole, where it is cold?), the people who can't stand any sort of mention of Christmas (or any vaguely religious holiday that has many secular ways to celebrate now) means we are very unlikely to get any even vaguely connected items.
I have long wanted things like cold weather outfits, that *could* be used for santa dragons, should the users want to, but would also come in a variety of colors, for those who just want their dragons to be warmly dressed in colder regions. I want things like baubles (like ornaments) or tinsel, or even things like easter eggs (just the eggs with brightly colored pretty designs)
Few people have an issue with Halloween being referenced or mentioned on site, despite that being another holiday with a religious background, and I am sure that there are many people who have various traumas surrounding it (as it is a favorite time for people to scare others and so on). It is perfectly fine to most people to have halloween themed events, and halloween themed items. But, they often don't want anything even vaguely related to any other holiday that they don't like.
As someone who also isn't fond of Halloween, I am fine with people being able to decorate their dragons with spooky skins and items. I would love more in that vein for them. I just wouldn't use them.
I just want to be able to put glittery tinsel and garlands and shinies on my dragons.
I thought for a second you meant that one of the crystalline gala skin winners had a santa hat in it, but apparently no single santa hat in sight.
So people are complaining that other people make skins that other people can buy that have *gasp* santa hats on them? JFC its not like they are forced to buy and use those skins.
People need to go outside and touch grass or something.
oh *now* i see it, i was looking for the stereotypical red santa hat, hence I did not see it at first glance, I thought it was a veil with fur or something
idk i mostly dislike festival skins because they are to busy for my taste or it changes the dragon into a landscape etc. i usually buy a set for my own completionist sake and toss them into my vault where they gather dust so i personally dont see the big issue
its like, just do not buy the skin if you dont like it? is it really that big of a problem?
The GC skin Winter Rose is the one with the ‘Santa hat’
I didn’t even notice it until I went back and looked. Even if they want to argue the creator was inspired by Santa, it’s not at all in your face or whatever. Not to mention as OP stated it’s a style of hat that existed outside of Christmas long before Santa wearing it was a thing. Just people throwing a fit over nothing as usual.
Also, this site has official halo-esque apparel. A blue winter Santa-style hat on a random accent is so tame compared to that lmao.
I didn't even notice the "santa hat" until people started bitching tbh. I thought the one with like holly on it was what people were saying is Christmas (which even that one is not, holly is not exclusively a Christmas thing). My first thought when I saw that hat was that it was a winter night cap, not a santa hat. People will really find anything to complain about but I guess I should expect as much from this community at this point lol
i can vaguely get where the SMR frustration is coming from because admins have said they want to avoid religious imagery/IRL "holidays" on FR. but lets be honestttttt the hat is a blue fuzzy winter hat and is so far removed from christmas imagery imo. itd be like saying we cant have pine trees on FR because some people decorate them for christmas. and like you said, there already is a little bit of wiggle room re: referencing IRL cultural events on FR. many of the flight holidays and micro-events are in line with IRL things, like harvest festivals and valentines day.
i definitely get why some people might take offense to a christmas inspired thing but like.... its a hat that vaguely resembles a secular/corporate reinterpretation of a christian holiday. and is also just a fluffy winter hat.
I completely understand about no religious imagery, but so many people are trying to stuff Christmas back into a purely religious holiday, and want to completely ignore that people celebrate it who aren't Christian, and aren't celebrating the explicitly Christian ideas of the holiday.
Also, that was a lot of my issue with the whole 'controversy', because the hat looks more like a sleep cap than a winter warm hat, and even then, with it being pale blue (I thought it was see through at first) it doesn't really even evoke 'Christmas' but 'Brrr'.
To be honest, I don't want religious symbols on site. I am Christian, but I prefer to leave real life topics that cause controversies out of my gaming. But, I do love stars, and glitter, and tinsel, and shiny ornaments, and pine trees and snow, and basically all things secular about Christmas and winter holidays.
I would just like more shiny things to decorate my dragons with :P
I mean, I’m an atheist who celebrates Christmas as secularly as one can I guess, but it’s still a religious holiday. It feels secular here (USA) because it’s all over the place during Nov/Dec and heavily commercialized, but that’s not because it’s actually secular - that’s because Christianity has its claws very firmly in USAmerican culture and we are a capitalist society that loves to turn whatever it can into profit. It’s the defacto winter holiday here *because* Christianity is so prevalent. Yes, a lot of people do celebrate it in an unreligious manner, but trying to wave away its clear religious origins and why it’s so ingrained in American culture in the first place is disingenuous. If we ever reach a point where Christianity isn’t the domineering religion and Christmas is still widely celebrated, then there might be an argument for it being more secular. (Obviously, can’t speak for other countries - but FR is an American based site, so I’m going off that.)
All that said, I still don’t think the skin evokes any strong Christmas themes other than having a winter hat of the same style as coca cola Santa. I just don’t blame staff for not wanting to incorporate more obvious holiday imagery. I’m all for them having similar items that *could* pass if someone wanted to use them but are still generic enough to not actually be holiday themed, but outright Christmas ornaments and Easter eggs and such is pushing it IMO.
Halloween has ties to religion, Valentine's day has even more overt ties to religion.
Both of those are widely seen as 'commercial' holidays, but it doesn't negate that they originally started out as a relgious celebration, though the religion may differ.
I also wasn't trying to 'wave away' the origins, but rather saying that many people do not celebrate those religious origins and, as many people like pointing out during Christmas, many of the traditions associated with it were pagan in origin.
According to Google, 150 countries out of 195 celebrate some form of christmas or holiday around Christmas. According to wikipedia, many do celebrate religious aspects, but secular aspects are still big and many countries that celebrate in some form or another but aren't Christian majority still celebrate those aspects.
I am not saying I want the site to be showered with ornaments, or tinsel or easter eggs or things like that, I just want to have some options available, as well as not see people start throwing fits at even the slightest hint that something might be inspired by a holiday that has secular aspects that are celebrated.
I feel that by taking such a stance of 'absolutely nothing that might even hint at a real life holiday' is just limiting the potential, because many things, such as santa suits, are actually just common clothing options for cold weather, or they are simply things that people have long done, even before they were incorporated into a holiday.
Take Fireworks, for many Americans, you say Fireworks, and they think the Fourth of July, but fireworks are used for many other occasions as well, and not JUST the 4th of july, or even new years. While straight up tinsel may be off the table, there are many ways they could incorporate vaguely holiday related items into the site, and it doesn't even have to be released around christmas or the holiday in question.
For instance, we know the harpies have an artistic side, so why couldn't they have taken to painting or carving their eggshells (the ones they hatch from) as 'commemoration' of hatching days? Then, because they liked it, they took to painting birds' eggs? (easter eggs) Or take rocks or various things from their environments and painted them and hang them around to just look pretty? (to create ornaments)
I don’t deny those holidays have religious origins too. In fact, I’d argue that they too are commonplace in the USA at least partially because of their Christian affiliation (even Halloween, while more Pagan/Samhain based, still has ties to All Saints Day - though of all these it’s probably the least egregiously Christian in origin IMO). The Love is in the Air event is the closest FR has to an outright existing Holiday, and while they have tried to distance themselves somewhat from actual Valentines, it’s still there. I’d be all for them further revamping that to be more generic while keeping the overall theme (though I do think the current items are already pretty generic - the Cupid bows are maybe the most outright Valentines.)
I also said I was in support of generic/vague items that could work either way - such as winter coats and hats as you said, which could come in a red/white variety. I could even see something like classic wooden toys and string lights working, especially if they’re released outside of the holiday season - they’re used for plenty of non-holiday applications. We even have things now that could pass for ornaments and tinsel and such if that’s what you’re going for. But things like Easter eggs (one of the most religious holidays I can think of in your examples) just can’t so easily be separated from being clearly Religious Holiday themed, even with their Pagan origins. I’m personally neutral toward them adding any items like this, but I understand and support their decision not to incorporate too many overt aspects of real world holiday, and why others don’t want those items.
I mostly take umbrage with this Christian idea that because Christmas is so ‘secular’ it’s ok for it to be everywhere and people complaining or uncomfortable with that are overreacting. There’s a reason why it’s everywhere in the first place and why that might be frustrating for non-Christians. (But this part of the conversation is rapidly encroaching rule breaking territory so I’m gonna drop it now.)
I mostly take umbrage with this Christian idea that because Christmas is so ‘secular’ it’s ok for it to be everywhere and people complaining or uncomfortable with that are overreacting. There’s a reason why it’s everywhere in the first place and why that might be frustrating for non-Christians.
as a Jewish person, to be clear: it is exactly this.
as the Jewish person who submitted the literal original SMR ask (I knew it would spark discussion, but not to THIS extent, what the heck), I also WAS actually, this whole damn time, referring to the holly auraboa F winner. … mostly because I saw it first, but also because I was tiredly willing to appreciate that the coatl F one at least changed the color palette to be closer to a generic winter hat, even if the combination with the fur-lined cloak and poinsettias together made it clear what the original inspo was.
these days, non-Christians are absolutely inundated with "supposedly secular" christmas imagery (something felt especially keenly by those of us who specifically practice different religions, rather than merely being nonreligious, and even more so if we also weren't raised christian), and unfortunately yes, green boughs + red berries have gotten swept up in that. if it does not bother you, then more power to you, i guess. after all, it is clear which side of this debate the staff have fallen on; "proving" to me that e.g. greeting card with a winter scene and a bunch of holly isn't a christmas thing will not change the fact that opinions like mine and those of other people who weren't raised immersed in christianity are ultimately a drop in the bucket, including on sites like FR.
LOL hi mindless 👋 other anon is right, the anime is called Sanda and it’s about a highschooler who can magically transform into ol’ Saint Nick.
To get back on topic: there are replies on SMR along the lines of “I’m sick of christianity permeating everything”, and while obviously that sentiment is 1000% valid, if this is how people are reacting to a hat that might be a santa claus reference, I fear they will be absolutely miserable when this anime becomes the new hotness.
On some level, I think those SMR posters are being… idk if ‘self-destructive’ is the appropriate phrase to use, but they have the ability to ignore this singular fest accent, and are choosing not to. And I know it’s not that deep, but if they don’t get this bad habit under wraps, the internet will be Hell for them come the fall 2025 anime season. Here is my obligatory “I am an ex-protestant” statement.
i assure you, anon, i can handle random anime references. the fact that precure always has a highly plot-relevant christmas episode (indeed, in japan and korea at minimum, christmas really is this sort of secular aesthetic experience, it seems??) has not stopped me watching precure.
i am not getting like. triggered by a santa hat. i am simply asking that places that tell me that they don't allow irl religious references in official site content to like. not pull this shit, ideally. i hope you get why that specific context makes this bother me more than it would otherwise?
To me, the issue is that Holly and Hats aren't 'religious' Sure, Christmas has a huge religious significance, but those in and of themselves aren't.
I would personally prefer an all or nothing approach. If they are going to allow Valentine's day, which is distinctly religious in origin, and Halloween, which has some religious undertones to its beginnings, then they should allow OTHER holidays, unless it has absolutely no secular version to it.
If they aren't going to allow things such as holly and hats (and I am willing to give up on tinsel and baubles) then other references to in real life holidays with religious connotations should not be allowed either.
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(frozen comment) SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 02:18 pm (UTC)(link)As someone who loves christmas and winter, it is really disappointing to see all the people getting their knickers in a twist because a skin has a vaguely 'santa hat' shaped hat.
Even without there being a long tradition of those hats being used in cold weather (why do you think santa is often depicted wearing it? Lives at the north pole, where it is cold?), the people who can't stand any sort of mention of Christmas (or any vaguely religious holiday that has many secular ways to celebrate now) means we are very unlikely to get any even vaguely connected items.
I have long wanted things like cold weather outfits, that *could* be used for santa dragons, should the users want to, but would also come in a variety of colors, for those who just want their dragons to be warmly dressed in colder regions. I want things like baubles (like ornaments) or tinsel, or even things like easter eggs (just the eggs with brightly colored pretty designs)
Few people have an issue with Halloween being referenced or mentioned on site, despite that being another holiday with a religious background, and I am sure that there are many people who have various traumas surrounding it (as it is a favorite time for people to scare others and so on). It is perfectly fine to most people to have halloween themed events, and halloween themed items. But, they often don't want anything even vaguely related to any other holiday that they don't like.
As someone who also isn't fond of Halloween, I am fine with people being able to decorate their dragons with spooky skins and items. I would love more in that vein for them. I just wouldn't use them.
I just want to be able to put glittery tinsel and garlands and shinies on my dragons.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 02:41 pm (UTC)(link)So people are complaining that other people make skins that other people can buy that have *gasp* santa hats on them? JFC its not like they are forced to buy and use those skins.
People need to go outside and touch grass or something.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 02:46 pm (UTC)(link)no, they *are* talking about a supposed "santa hat" in the crystalline gala winners: winter rose #61628
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 03:23 pm (UTC)(link)oh *now* i see it, i was looking for the stereotypical red santa hat, hence I did not see it at first glance, I thought it was a veil with fur or something
idk i mostly dislike festival skins because they are to busy for my taste or it changes the dragon into a landscape etc. i usually buy a set for my own completionist sake and toss them into my vault where they gather dust so i personally dont see the big issue
its like, just do not buy the skin if you dont like it? is it really that big of a problem?
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 05:02 pm (UTC)(link)I don't really like the skin in question because, while well done and good art, I am just not fond of how it is pale blue and looks transparent to me.
But, I can just decide to not buy it (still on the fence, I might find a dragon it looks good on) and go on with my life.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 06:44 pm (UTC)(link)never mind that this should be a non-issue because it's not a damn santa hat???
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 02:49 pm (UTC)(link)I didn’t even notice it until I went back and looked. Even if they want to argue the creator was inspired by Santa, it’s not at all in your face or whatever. Not to mention as OP stated it’s a style of hat that existed outside of Christmas long before Santa wearing it was a thing. Just people throwing a fit over nothing as usual.
Also, this site has official halo-esque apparel. A blue winter Santa-style hat on a random accent is so tame compared to that lmao.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 03:19 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 03:02 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 03:58 pm (UTC)(link)i definitely get why some people might take offense to a christmas inspired thing but like.... its a hat that vaguely resembles a secular/corporate reinterpretation of a christian holiday. and is also just a fluffy winter hat.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 04:59 pm (UTC)(link)I completely understand about no religious imagery, but so many people are trying to stuff Christmas back into a purely religious holiday, and want to completely ignore that people celebrate it who aren't Christian, and aren't celebrating the explicitly Christian ideas of the holiday.
Also, that was a lot of my issue with the whole 'controversy', because the hat looks more like a sleep cap than a winter warm hat, and even then, with it being pale blue (I thought it was see through at first) it doesn't really even evoke 'Christmas' but 'Brrr'.
To be honest, I don't want religious symbols on site. I am Christian, but I prefer to leave real life topics that cause controversies out of my gaming. But, I do love stars, and glitter, and tinsel, and shiny ornaments, and pine trees and snow, and basically all things secular about Christmas and winter holidays.
I would just like more shiny things to decorate my dragons with :P
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 05:30 pm (UTC)(link)I mean, I’m an atheist who celebrates Christmas as secularly as one can I guess, but it’s still a religious holiday. It feels secular here (USA) because it’s all over the place during Nov/Dec and heavily commercialized, but that’s not because it’s actually secular - that’s because Christianity has its claws very firmly in USAmerican culture and we are a capitalist society that loves to turn whatever it can into profit. It’s the defacto winter holiday here *because* Christianity is so prevalent. Yes, a lot of people do celebrate it in an unreligious manner, but trying to wave away its clear religious origins and why it’s so ingrained in American culture in the first place is disingenuous. If we ever reach a point where Christianity isn’t the domineering religion and Christmas is still widely celebrated, then there might be an argument for it being more secular. (Obviously, can’t speak for other countries - but FR is an American based site, so I’m going off that.)
All that said, I still don’t think the skin evokes any strong Christmas themes other than having a winter hat of the same style as coca cola Santa. I just don’t blame staff for not wanting to incorporate more obvious holiday imagery. I’m all for them having similar items that *could* pass if someone wanted to use them but are still generic enough to not actually be holiday themed, but outright Christmas ornaments and Easter eggs and such is pushing it IMO.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 06:52 pm (UTC)(link)Both of those are widely seen as 'commercial' holidays, but it doesn't negate that they originally started out as a relgious celebration, though the religion may differ.
I also wasn't trying to 'wave away' the origins, but rather saying that many people do not celebrate those religious origins and, as many people like pointing out during Christmas, many of the traditions associated with it were pagan in origin.
According to Google, 150 countries out of 195 celebrate some form of christmas or holiday around Christmas. According to wikipedia, many do celebrate religious aspects, but secular aspects are still big and many countries that celebrate in some form or another but aren't Christian majority still celebrate those aspects.
I am not saying I want the site to be showered with ornaments, or tinsel or easter eggs or things like that, I just want to have some options available, as well as not see people start throwing fits at even the slightest hint that something might be inspired by a holiday that has secular aspects that are celebrated.
I feel that by taking such a stance of 'absolutely nothing that might even hint at a real life holiday' is just limiting the potential, because many things, such as santa suits, are actually just common clothing options for cold weather, or they are simply things that people have long done, even before they were incorporated into a holiday.
Take Fireworks, for many Americans, you say Fireworks, and they think the Fourth of July, but fireworks are used for many other occasions as well, and not JUST the 4th of july, or even new years. While straight up tinsel may be off the table, there are many ways they could incorporate vaguely holiday related items into the site, and it doesn't even have to be released around christmas or the holiday in question.
For instance, we know the harpies have an artistic side, so why couldn't they have taken to painting or carving their eggshells (the ones they hatch from) as 'commemoration' of hatching days? Then, because they liked it, they took to painting birds' eggs? (easter eggs) Or take rocks or various things from their environments and painted them and hang them around to just look pretty? (to create ornaments)
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 07:25 pm (UTC)(link)I also said I was in support of generic/vague items that could work either way - such as winter coats and hats as you said, which could come in a red/white variety. I could even see something like classic wooden toys and string lights working, especially if they’re released outside of the holiday season - they’re used for plenty of non-holiday applications. We even have things now that could pass for ornaments and tinsel and such if that’s what you’re going for. But things like Easter eggs (one of the most religious holidays I can think of in your examples) just can’t so easily be separated from being clearly Religious Holiday themed, even with their Pagan origins. I’m personally neutral toward them adding any items like this, but I understand and support their decision not to incorporate too many overt aspects of real world holiday, and why others don’t want those items.
I mostly take umbrage with this Christian idea that because Christmas is so ‘secular’ it’s ok for it to be everywhere and people complaining or uncomfortable with that are overreacting. There’s a reason why it’s everywhere in the first place and why that might be frustrating for non-Christians. (But this part of the conversation is rapidly encroaching rule breaking territory so I’m gonna drop it now.)
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 03:08 pm (UTC)(link)as a Jewish person, to be clear: it is exactly this.
as the Jewish person who submitted the literal original SMR ask (I knew it would spark discussion, but not to THIS extent, what the heck), I also WAS actually, this whole damn time, referring to the holly auraboa F winner.
… mostly because I saw it first, but also because I was tiredly willing to appreciate that the coatl F one at least changed the color palette to be closer to a generic winter hat, even if the combination with the fur-lined cloak and poinsettias together made it clear what the original inspo was.
these days, non-Christians are absolutely inundated with "supposedly secular" christmas imagery (something felt especially keenly by those of us who specifically practice different religions, rather than merely being nonreligious, and even more so if we also weren't raised christian), and unfortunately yes, green boughs + red berries have gotten swept up in that. if it does not bother you, then more power to you, i guess. after all, it is clear which side of this debate the staff have fallen on; "proving" to me that e.g. greeting card with a winter scene and a bunch of holly isn't a christmas thing will not change the fact that opinions like mine and those of other people who weren't raised immersed in christianity are ultimately a drop in the bucket, including on sites like FR.
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(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)i do not like the skin because LokiFire was being weird and whiny in the light flight discord about how they'd never win. we are not the same.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 10:55 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
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(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 01:28 pm (UTC)(link)https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/1hlf9h2/sanda_anime_new_visual/
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)To get back on topic: there are replies on SMR along the lines of “I’m sick of christianity permeating everything”, and while obviously that sentiment is 1000% valid, if this is how people are reacting to a hat that might be a santa claus reference, I fear they will be absolutely miserable when this anime becomes the new hotness.
On some level, I think those SMR posters are being… idk if ‘self-destructive’ is the appropriate phrase to use, but they have the ability to ignore this singular fest accent, and are choosing not to. And I know it’s not that deep, but if they don’t get this bad habit under wraps, the internet will be Hell for them come the fall 2025 anime season. Here is my obligatory “I am an ex-protestant” statement.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 03:45 pm (UTC)(link)i am not getting like. triggered by a santa hat. i am simply asking that places that tell me that they don't allow irl religious references in official site content to like. not pull this shit, ideally. i hope you get why that specific context makes this bother me more than it would otherwise?
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 04:02 pm (UTC)(link)I would personally prefer an all or nothing approach. If they are going to allow Valentine's day, which is distinctly religious in origin, and Halloween, which has some religious undertones to its beginnings, then they should allow OTHER holidays, unless it has absolutely no secular version to it.
If they aren't going to allow things such as holly and hats (and I am willing to give up on tinsel and baubles) then other references to in real life holidays with religious connotations should not be allowed either.
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(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 04:06 pm (UTC)(link)I can't believe we're still talking about a fucking hat. Jfc
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) - 2025-01-28 16:37 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) - 2025-01-28 17:41 (UTC) - Expand