Halloween has ties to religion, Valentine's day has even more overt ties to religion.
Both of those are widely seen as 'commercial' holidays, but it doesn't negate that they originally started out as a relgious celebration, though the religion may differ.
I also wasn't trying to 'wave away' the origins, but rather saying that many people do not celebrate those religious origins and, as many people like pointing out during Christmas, many of the traditions associated with it were pagan in origin.
According to Google, 150 countries out of 195 celebrate some form of christmas or holiday around Christmas. According to wikipedia, many do celebrate religious aspects, but secular aspects are still big and many countries that celebrate in some form or another but aren't Christian majority still celebrate those aspects.
I am not saying I want the site to be showered with ornaments, or tinsel or easter eggs or things like that, I just want to have some options available, as well as not see people start throwing fits at even the slightest hint that something might be inspired by a holiday that has secular aspects that are celebrated.
I feel that by taking such a stance of 'absolutely nothing that might even hint at a real life holiday' is just limiting the potential, because many things, such as santa suits, are actually just common clothing options for cold weather, or they are simply things that people have long done, even before they were incorporated into a holiday.
Take Fireworks, for many Americans, you say Fireworks, and they think the Fourth of July, but fireworks are used for many other occasions as well, and not JUST the 4th of july, or even new years. While straight up tinsel may be off the table, there are many ways they could incorporate vaguely holiday related items into the site, and it doesn't even have to be released around christmas or the holiday in question.
For instance, we know the harpies have an artistic side, so why couldn't they have taken to painting or carving their eggshells (the ones they hatch from) as 'commemoration' of hatching days? Then, because they liked it, they took to painting birds' eggs? (easter eggs) Or take rocks or various things from their environments and painted them and hang them around to just look pretty? (to create ornaments)
I don’t deny those holidays have religious origins too. In fact, I’d argue that they too are commonplace in the USA at least partially because of their Christian affiliation (even Halloween, while more Pagan/Samhain based, still has ties to All Saints Day - though of all these it’s probably the least egregiously Christian in origin IMO). The Love is in the Air event is the closest FR has to an outright existing Holiday, and while they have tried to distance themselves somewhat from actual Valentines, it’s still there. I’d be all for them further revamping that to be more generic while keeping the overall theme (though I do think the current items are already pretty generic - the Cupid bows are maybe the most outright Valentines.)
I also said I was in support of generic/vague items that could work either way - such as winter coats and hats as you said, which could come in a red/white variety. I could even see something like classic wooden toys and string lights working, especially if they’re released outside of the holiday season - they’re used for plenty of non-holiday applications. We even have things now that could pass for ornaments and tinsel and such if that’s what you’re going for. But things like Easter eggs (one of the most religious holidays I can think of in your examples) just can’t so easily be separated from being clearly Religious Holiday themed, even with their Pagan origins. I’m personally neutral toward them adding any items like this, but I understand and support their decision not to incorporate too many overt aspects of real world holiday, and why others don’t want those items.
I mostly take umbrage with this Christian idea that because Christmas is so ‘secular’ it’s ok for it to be everywhere and people complaining or uncomfortable with that are overreacting. There’s a reason why it’s everywhere in the first place and why that might be frustrating for non-Christians. (But this part of the conversation is rapidly encroaching rule breaking territory so I’m gonna drop it now.)
I mostly take umbrage with this Christian idea that because Christmas is so ‘secular’ it’s ok for it to be everywhere and people complaining or uncomfortable with that are overreacting. There’s a reason why it’s everywhere in the first place and why that might be frustrating for non-Christians.
as a Jewish person, to be clear: it is exactly this.
as the Jewish person who submitted the literal original SMR ask (I knew it would spark discussion, but not to THIS extent, what the heck), I also WAS actually, this whole damn time, referring to the holly auraboa F winner. … mostly because I saw it first, but also because I was tiredly willing to appreciate that the coatl F one at least changed the color palette to be closer to a generic winter hat, even if the combination with the fur-lined cloak and poinsettias together made it clear what the original inspo was.
these days, non-Christians are absolutely inundated with "supposedly secular" christmas imagery (something felt especially keenly by those of us who specifically practice different religions, rather than merely being nonreligious, and even more so if we also weren't raised christian), and unfortunately yes, green boughs + red berries have gotten swept up in that. if it does not bother you, then more power to you, i guess. after all, it is clear which side of this debate the staff have fallen on; "proving" to me that e.g. greeting card with a winter scene and a bunch of holly isn't a christmas thing will not change the fact that opinions like mine and those of other people who weren't raised immersed in christianity are ultimately a drop in the bucket, including on sites like FR.
That viewpoint of Christmas isn't one universally shared amongst religious non-Christians - I can think of many, many Hindu and Muslim households here that get a tree up and get holly jolly with it, so it's not just down to Christmas immersion either. So it's not even that it's Christians versus everyone else, it's Christians (culturally or otherwise) and everyone that isn't actively uncomfortable with something of Christian origins being seen as neutral ground versus everyone else, which is why it feels like such a minority opinion. It's ultimately an American website with American staff that serves a majority English-speaking audience, most of whom won't object to something like holly because it's not a direct religious reference.
wow anon you are so right, as we all know, if some minorities are okay with something, that means it is totally fine and any other minorities with differing opinions are totally bitter berries and just overreacting
like i get that this is a losing battle on my end—a lost battle, even. the skins exist as official site items.
but if nothing else please let me have my emotions about it.
I don't think anyone said you aren’t allowed to have your emotions. It's just a nuanced situation with many different views even within the same minority.
Those are a lot of words you put in my mouth when I was just elaborating on why you might feel especially outnumbered even within the non-Christian minority. But sure, all minorities are actually in agreement and the right opinion just so happens to be the one you do not have. We did a poll and everything.
every single christian (or "ex-christian") owes every single non-christian forced to read all your nonsense every single time we say we're tired of christianity being considered "secular" and the cultural default a light sprite. i'll await the pm eagerly anon!
da tbf to them, the sentence is really long and not written in the most coherent way to get their point across lol
They could have worded it more like: every single christian (or "ex-christian") owes every single non-christian a light sprite after they are forced to read all your nonsense every single time we say we're tired of christianity being considered "secular" and the cultural default.
I am not a Christian or ex-Christian and was trying to explain it from my POV because I find it relatively easy to not be bothered by this, but keep your assumption that everyone that disagrees with you just happens to belong to the group you have beef with going. You'll be right eventually!
You know, I actually find it fascinating sometimes how thoroughly Christianity managed to steal older pagan traditions that people are claiming them as religious symbols.
Because what you see as people using Christian imagery and claiming it as secular, I've always seen as using the more neutral non Christian iconography for a more open holiday season.
I guess it's just a cultural and upbringing changing point of view issue.
Holly is a winter plant. It’s associated with winter just as much as it is Christmas. There’s nothing Christmasy about the skin itself. It has winter bunnies and birds on it…. Because it’s a plant for the winter time.
I could understand if this were over the hat one. I don’t agree it’s too Christmasy, but I’d get that some people might not like it. But we’re talking about a plant used commonly in generic winter imagery. Just like pinecones and cardinals and fir trees, which are also used in Christmas decor but also just represent winter in general.
I’m the AYRT, so like I’m in full agreement that the site should not be incorporating outright Christmas imagery like ornaments or actual Santa outfits or decorated Christmas trees or whatever, but if you start taking away anything that has even a minor association with Christmas, what’s left for the Ice Festival? Are we to be limited to icicles and jail imagery? I’d rather see a holly leaf than all the prison stuff, personally.
That’s very fair lol - To be honest I’m not even bothered by the chains and prison deal so much, and I like Ice’s fest stuff. I just can’t imagine the occasional non-Christmas Holly plant item/skin being any more questionable in general than, say, the shackle apparel or something.
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(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 06:52 pm (UTC)(link)Both of those are widely seen as 'commercial' holidays, but it doesn't negate that they originally started out as a relgious celebration, though the religion may differ.
I also wasn't trying to 'wave away' the origins, but rather saying that many people do not celebrate those religious origins and, as many people like pointing out during Christmas, many of the traditions associated with it were pagan in origin.
According to Google, 150 countries out of 195 celebrate some form of christmas or holiday around Christmas. According to wikipedia, many do celebrate religious aspects, but secular aspects are still big and many countries that celebrate in some form or another but aren't Christian majority still celebrate those aspects.
I am not saying I want the site to be showered with ornaments, or tinsel or easter eggs or things like that, I just want to have some options available, as well as not see people start throwing fits at even the slightest hint that something might be inspired by a holiday that has secular aspects that are celebrated.
I feel that by taking such a stance of 'absolutely nothing that might even hint at a real life holiday' is just limiting the potential, because many things, such as santa suits, are actually just common clothing options for cold weather, or they are simply things that people have long done, even before they were incorporated into a holiday.
Take Fireworks, for many Americans, you say Fireworks, and they think the Fourth of July, but fireworks are used for many other occasions as well, and not JUST the 4th of july, or even new years. While straight up tinsel may be off the table, there are many ways they could incorporate vaguely holiday related items into the site, and it doesn't even have to be released around christmas or the holiday in question.
For instance, we know the harpies have an artistic side, so why couldn't they have taken to painting or carving their eggshells (the ones they hatch from) as 'commemoration' of hatching days? Then, because they liked it, they took to painting birds' eggs? (easter eggs) Or take rocks or various things from their environments and painted them and hang them around to just look pretty? (to create ornaments)
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-27 07:25 pm (UTC)(link)I also said I was in support of generic/vague items that could work either way - such as winter coats and hats as you said, which could come in a red/white variety. I could even see something like classic wooden toys and string lights working, especially if they’re released outside of the holiday season - they’re used for plenty of non-holiday applications. We even have things now that could pass for ornaments and tinsel and such if that’s what you’re going for. But things like Easter eggs (one of the most religious holidays I can think of in your examples) just can’t so easily be separated from being clearly Religious Holiday themed, even with their Pagan origins. I’m personally neutral toward them adding any items like this, but I understand and support their decision not to incorporate too many overt aspects of real world holiday, and why others don’t want those items.
I mostly take umbrage with this Christian idea that because Christmas is so ‘secular’ it’s ok for it to be everywhere and people complaining or uncomfortable with that are overreacting. There’s a reason why it’s everywhere in the first place and why that might be frustrating for non-Christians. (But this part of the conversation is rapidly encroaching rule breaking territory so I’m gonna drop it now.)
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 03:08 pm (UTC)(link)as a Jewish person, to be clear: it is exactly this.
as the Jewish person who submitted the literal original SMR ask (I knew it would spark discussion, but not to THIS extent, what the heck), I also WAS actually, this whole damn time, referring to the holly auraboa F winner.
… mostly because I saw it first, but also because I was tiredly willing to appreciate that the coatl F one at least changed the color palette to be closer to a generic winter hat, even if the combination with the fur-lined cloak and poinsettias together made it clear what the original inspo was.
these days, non-Christians are absolutely inundated with "supposedly secular" christmas imagery (something felt especially keenly by those of us who specifically practice different religions, rather than merely being nonreligious, and even more so if we also weren't raised christian), and unfortunately yes, green boughs + red berries have gotten swept up in that. if it does not bother you, then more power to you, i guess. after all, it is clear which side of this debate the staff have fallen on; "proving" to me that e.g. greeting card with a winter scene and a bunch of holly isn't a christmas thing will not change the fact that opinions like mine and those of other people who weren't raised immersed in christianity are ultimately a drop in the bucket, including on sites like FR.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 04:01 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)like i get that this is a losing battle on my end—a lost battle, even. the skins exist as official site items.
but if nothing else please let me have my emotions about it.
(frozen comment) sa
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 07:12 pm (UTC)(link)but the autocorrect misfire is a little funny in the context of talking about, among other things, holly.
(frozen comment) Da
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 08:15 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 11:13 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 03:35 am (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 03:39 am (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 03:40 am (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 03:46 am (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 02:36 pm (UTC)(link)They could have worded it more like: every single christian (or "ex-christian") owes every single non-christian a light sprite after they are forced to read all your nonsense every single time we say we're tired of christianity being considered "secular" and the cultural default.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 03:53 am (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 08:03 am (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 11:45 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 05:10 pm (UTC)(link)Because what you see as people using Christian imagery and claiming it as secular, I've always seen as using the more neutral non Christian iconography for a more open holiday season.
I guess it's just a cultural and upbringing changing point of view issue.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 07:51 pm (UTC)(link)Holly is a winter plant. It’s associated with winter just as much as it is Christmas. There’s nothing Christmasy about the skin itself. It has winter bunnies and birds on it…. Because it’s a plant for the winter time.
I could understand if this were over the hat one. I don’t agree it’s too Christmasy, but I’d get that some people might not like it. But we’re talking about a plant used commonly in generic winter imagery. Just like pinecones and cardinals and fir trees, which are also used in Christmas decor but also just represent winter in general.
I’m the AYRT, so like I’m in full agreement that the site should not be incorporating outright Christmas imagery like ornaments or actual Santa outfits or decorated Christmas trees or whatever, but if you start taking away anything that has even a minor association with Christmas, what’s left for the Ice Festival? Are we to be limited to icicles and jail imagery? I’d rather see a holly leaf than all the prison stuff, personally.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 09:15 pm (UTC)(link)(Also, more seriously, given that icicles and snowflakes are ALSO imagery on christmas cards... It's just the chains.)
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-28 09:45 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)God gave you a brain for a reason. Use it before you give yourself an aneurysm over nothing.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 07:57 pm (UTC)(link)Touching grass is highly beneficial for the brain, all I can say.
(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 08:02 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 08:21 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: SMR 'Santa Hat' Salt
(Anonymous) 2025-01-29 10:09 pm (UTC)(link)