Damnit, Arcanist

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(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

a thread on th was made about this including the messages (i believe this post is readable to those without an account)
https://toyhou.se/~forums/5867.service-reviews/402800.gravnagryravnaravn-psa-flightrising

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

looks like gravna made reasonable offers to edit things but shamirr was just too mad to really consider anything other than a full refund. in the PMs shamirr more or less admits that they didnt provide a good explanation/refs for what they specifically wanted. i think gravna fucked up by not explicitly getting a sketch response from shamirr, but if i sent 2 pms to someone and they didnt respond for a week i might have done that as well.

making an artists beware post about this is really dramatic and unnecessary imo

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

+1

Even as someone who's been on the other end of this and tends to skew toward the buyer in situations like these because of that bias, Gravna seems to have done what they can to try and remedy it while Shamirr seems unwilling to try and work with them.

Kinda amusing how a "beware this artist!" post kinda turns into a "beware this art buyer" instead.

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

tbh kinda frustrating that the thread just has one person responding and specifically in support of shamirr, in light of this

or is it standard for this kind of thing to not go super commented on, over at toyhouse?

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

Looks like one other person joined the thread:

Dakkokki:
Can you post the evidence of tracing? Like, not just a link to the DA page but the images you were given? Because I can't seem to find the traced poses

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

Dakkokki here, I am not defending either person, I'm just curious about which ones were traced and I don't want to go through thousands of pose pictures lmao

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

sure LOOKS like you're siding with shamirr and reinforcing the narrative that gravna is a bad actor, bud.

(frozen comment) sa

[(Anonymous)]

...wait shit i got you mixed up with drakendinn, sorry about that!

(frozen comment) Re: sa

[(Anonymous)]

Lmao, I was about to say??

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

Want to explain this, Dakkokki?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/191208098902441984/1109377725568921610/image.png

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Oh huh TIL Dakkokki is Twink_God#6136 and captain-chompers.

Isn't this the same wanker that was involved in a bullshit callout document calling someone irl abusive based on the logic that the person in question reminded them vaguely of their ex?

https://imgur.com/a/rCb17xG

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

ugh what a nightmare for gravna. this is why I won't bother selling art.

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

It's tricky. I sympathize with Shamirr, because I'd hate to lose 6kg on a piece that's not what I wanted. On the other hand, I feel bad for gravna, because Shamirr was unnecessarily rude, and they /are/ offering to fix the reference sheet. This could've been easily avoided with more communication on both ends.

Also, that Toyhou.se username.."gravnaPSA"? c'mon man, be for real.

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

lol I didn't see that Shamirr had made a whole account called "gravnaPSA" for calling out gravna on TH... geez. Did they sign up for the account on TH just to post this callout because it wasn't getting responses on FR? :/

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

Fun fact: You can't just sign up on Toyhou.se, you need a code!

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

They used a code just for that?

(frozen comment) DA

[(Anonymous)]

This is some hardcore petty bullshit.

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

to be fair, getting th codes is super easy. im sitting on 200+ unused ones rn lol

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

Drakendinn joined the tracing discourse on the TH thread.

Drakendinn: Gravna did not tell me this was a traced pose, unfortunately. So, yeah, that's something to keep in mind if they do start offering comms again.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1007343970956869735/1108794501197213859/Screenshot_20230519-003238_Chrome.jpg

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1007343970956869735/1108794511146111076/Screenshot_20230519-003126_Chrome.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/CxSibSt.png

I'm not sure why Drakendinn is upset about not being told that Gravna used a creative commons photo with "no credit needed" listed in the rules as a guide underneath one of the commission drawings? This also isn't like tracing a meme pose, where the lines drawing have already been figured out by the original artist and by drawing on top of the meme you're literally tracing the work of the original drawing. Pose meme artists also usually ask for credit for their work, so maybe Drakendinn and Shamirr think that every pose reference that exists on the internet works just like that?

Drawing on top of creative commons photos is extremely standard practice, and the rules explicitly laid out in the stock photo account say that "no credit is needed" for this type of thing. Legally it's the same as if Gravna took a picture of themselves, drew on top of it, and didn't tell Drakendinn that they'd used that for reference.

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

This is a recurring thing in Art Discourse and its really annoying
its like people just internalize the simple ''trace bad!" standard and don't apply any thought to context or actual practice

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt

i would be upset if an artist traced closely (keyword: closely) over a freely available pose photo for a picture of my OC because i want something that's unique and isn't recognizably traced. that said, there's a lot of nuance. if you're a photorealistic artist and you trace over a photo because you intend to copy it, that's different from someone getting the broad strokes of a pose and changing up details.

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

I mean people can be upset about whatever they want I simply thing the artist did nothing morally wrong in this case.

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

i agree, though if the artist did anything wrong, it was the fact they didn't seek alternate communication in some method before going forward with the commission. even a profile message saying "hey, i sent you a PM about your commission!" could have gone a long way, or pinging on the forum thread where they first started talking.

everything else, though, wasn't their fault and i hope that they can recover through this. despite their mistake, they did try to resolve it by offering fixes. 60$ for a reference sheet they were offering is super cheap, and they don't deserve the stress that comes with this whole situation.

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

Disagree. If they didn't reply to a PM, it's reasonable to assume they won't reply anywhere else either bc life happened or something came up, etc. On the other hand, a profile message or pinging could count as harassment, so I'd be EXTREMELY wary about trying to contact them again through other methods unless explicitly given permission to.

(frozen comment) Re: Artist beware drama

[(Anonymous)]

Exactly this.

I'm in a server full of artists (99% of which are well over 25, yes this is important, because the whole "using references is BAD" is an opinion I'm seeing more and more by younger folks)

It's a common opinion that using references- even cobbling them together to help with a pose that is giving the artist issues- and loosely building sketches over them, is a helpful practice. Many of us actually take photos of our hands in various poses and exchange them as references (because hand references are a PAIN.)

These references are provided for this kind of thing, and it's not like they were tracing over artwork- which is literally theft.