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An important update:

Due to a specific person being a complete child, comments are going to be screened by default.

This is only temporary, and I apologize for the inconvenience- this is going to be a pain in the ass for me, too, but multiple people have come forward about fears of doxxing, and this is the only way to make sure any doxxing is contained.

(This basically will force the doxxer to make a DW account to post any doxxing attempts unscreened, and will let me more reliably report them to DW staff/authorities.)

Again, I apologize, and will be working to unscreen comments as fast as possible, but I'm only one person.

(Vasemod has had some personal issues come up, so I am the only mod atm. Please bear with me until this bit of annoyance has passed.)

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Can I be honest? Both sides of the argument have "stop you're making our side look shitty". See the people Bright is complaining about. On the other side, see Jackaling's nasty "there's no way you can do what we did so don't try" attitude ripping into staff.

i… wanted to call the complexity of the tools being taken away from the community to staff’s attention but ok

is that literally you jackaling

and you had to be an annoying jackass about it?

yes :(

i mean looking back my replies to staff have a more harsh tone than i like. i would have polished them more. i did write several other posts w my longer analysis of the issue, so i hope my many words can clarify how i feel about it (which is strongly! i was grouchy) and come off a little more level-headed. i am interested in game economies and i see an important facet of fr’s economy getting kneecapped bc of a lack of foresight. i apologize for going off without taking time to cool off, and for using a tone that felt passionate at the time but is definitely overly blunt.

i can explain my issues with the removal of mass pings but it would take an essay (and i’ve already put a lot of my thoughts in suggestions forum). it’s a complex topic and the community-run pinglists are critically important to communities that seem niche but move quite a high amount of g/t through the game. i love skins and accents and i just can’t see anything official that’s on the level of gasp being worth dev time, which is deeply frustrating. i *only* ping gasp, i barely use the g1/other pinglists, but i know how integral they are to some fr users and i really feel for them. i’m not just trying to whine and be a dick, tho i do have cunt tendencies. i know the economy is a silly thing to worry about for some people (smr) but like… i really can’t say how much it means to me to be an artist on a site where art is valued and artists can be compensated fairly, and i know that skins and accents need gasp or something very like it to survive. i also know that the complexities of gasp are for a comparative niche and an official replacement would likely interfere pretty heavily with dev resources that could go towards features more players could enjoy.

guess i wrote an essay anyway… well, read my suggestions forum posts for more clarification :-O

Dude, most gaming companies would have given you a temp forum ban if you spoke to their representatives like you did FR staff. They apparently have the patience if saints.

Next time: sit down, write it out, toss your words to a friend to check you, then post it.

i don’t think it was temp ban harsh, but i do think it was more harsh than i intended. i have a clinical/clipped way of writing and it doesn’t communicate well on the internet all the time - definitely not in that situation, where i was reacting to something frustrating. you’re right that i should have cooled off before posting my initial responses. i also didn’t anticipate multiple replies from staff :| like i said i do have cunt tendencies and i don’t stand by my conduct. i do stand by the other shit i’ve written about the issue bc this decision *is* going to blow up the trading economy.

i can only apologize for my tone. i hope my many years being chill on fr before this incident can speak to my character instead of two heated posts that unexpectedly got dev responses.

your problem is that you are taking this new update completely at face value, and not allowing ANY room for the developers to actually DEVELOP the feature at all. your doomposting about how this will kill the economy because you believe the site can't make a similar tool along any kind of timeline is 100% unfounded because you aren't even letting them do ANYTHING to improve upon it. it isn't just your tone, it's also your attitude as a whole during this entire exchange. yes, i understand the immediate outlook of this project makes you angry and scared and worried, but you did not listen to the developers throughout your yelling, only yelled louder as if they were choosing to ignore your repetitious complaint. if you even read, you could tell they take this seriously!

FR may not have the manpower Google has, but they ARE capable of making good changes. they clearly know this is a big change and a big undertaking. they aren't stupid, or blind/deaf to their community and said several times this isn't going to take away mass pings for the forseeable future. they have expressed through their words they aren't taking it away until the tool is developed enough and only released it as is so people can try it, test it, and help them understand what changes the community requires of a tool like this. just like how every game releases with bugs because a QA team can't possibly account for an entire playerbase's playstyles and fix the bugs accordingly, they have to do the same!

just use the tool and try it so they can get metrics and see how you need the tool to function! actually LEND to their feedback process instead of screeching at them like they're Neanderthals who know nothing about their community and taking everything at complete face value despite them saying they know and need the community's help to resolve the problem.

i don’t want to be argumentative but i genuinely do not feel the way that people are saying i do and i feel it’s a lot of projection on my many issues with this decision. i do not believe staff is dumb. i actually defend them quite a lot and i do believe that they want the best for flight rising. i do not believe they are personally out to get me or the communities i belong to. i don’t believe they are stupid and i *understand* that they’re open to change and plan on being flexible as they develop something to replace the functions of mass pings.

i do *not* believe that the on-site features will be able to match the functionality of user made tools. i have never said that staff just shouldn’t try to make anything analogous because it’s ~impossible~, anyone saying that is putting words in my mouth. i also tried to give a bit more nuance to my stance on what this will do to the trading economy. i’m *interested* in game economies and flight rising has a uniquely stable player-driven trading community that thrives because of what our dedicated community has built.

when people say things like what you’ve said here, it really seems to me that they’ve missed *my* point. which is, really, just two basic points:

- player-run systems like gasp, the g1 pinglist, and many many niche communities of dragon collection are complex, contain thousands (or millions in the case of g1) of possible combinations.
- the communities who utilize these lists are niches, and the resources it would take to develop systems like the ones players have tested for *years* seems unrealistic to bolster trading niches.

this is not ‘… so it’s impossible and staff should never try.’ it’s just a cause for concern that staff doesn’t even seem to know the functionality of the g1 pinglist- the recent post even says they can’t sanction certain play styles outside of skins and accents and dominance, specifically mentioning that certain aspects of dragon collecting are not site-sanctioned. (… on the dragon collecting game.) it just… it’s going to change a lot of things and it’s going to be rough for staff to try and develop systems akin to player-operated pinglists that have operated for years.

if you want to interpret a handful of responses as ‘screeching at staff like they’re neanderthals’, just block me please. i don’t think it reflects well on me, but this is like. pretty exaggerated and i think you’ve missed the concerns that i actually have because i wrote frustrated responses. i feel badly for what i wrote and i would take it back but it’s on dev tracker forever and there isn’t much i can do about that besides reiterate that i’m sorry and i do *not* feel the way that this anon assumes.

no, i read your responses. multiple times, even, because i didn't want to give you a disingenuous read, and passed them to others to read to make sure i didn't read it wrong. i read all your onsite posts, which contain concerns i don't think are unfounded either, but the ONLY thing i'm telling you is not only did your tone suck, your approach AND attitude did, too. you are, again, assuming that other people just don't read what you're saying.

i have developed things that they have had to as a professional network administrator, and i also worked as a professional freelance artist having to network and contact people through similar methods online and offline that i had to make myself. everything takes time, effort, and trial and error. i have been on THEIR side of these things, and i have also been on YOUR side of these things. what they think they're capable of right now CAN and WILL change as people give proper feedback and use their tools, but they need the room to do it in the first place; room that many people don't seem very willing to give them. room that you aren't giving either, even if you think you're giving them some.

you have MULTIPLE people telling you that you suck right now and that it wasn't just your tone, including folks off flight rising who used to play the site and used usermade pinglists like GASP and such. it's time to step back and really look at what you did and how you did it when people who would be more biased to your side also think you suck.

again, i don’t want to be argumentative and this is probably my last response because i’m committed to apologizing for what i said to staff and the people saying i suck are committed to… saying that i suck. i’m sorry i have a bad attitude? i don’t know what else i can do. i have concerns, i apologized for speaking the way i did, i *am* trying to chill and hold out until something official is released because it’s not worth feeling disgruntled over something that doesn’t exist yet, i’m honestly just not sure what else i can do here. i am not committed to being a jackass just because. i don’t think there’s much else besides to wait bc this obviously isn’t getting resolved overnight and as i said in one of my responses to staff, i do trust that they’re open to feedback.

it’s frustrating that they walked into this decision without an understanding of how the community utilizes mass pings, but i guess we’ll see what happens in the long run. like i said, trying to be chill about it until something actually happens. and… idk unless someone says something heinous i’m not replying here again- if it’s my attitude that’s the issue, explaining my point of view won’t really help my case on a drama com LOL

Actually, I think you are reading it differently. They're trying to figure out what other groups they can support without it being turned into "the right way to play the game". Not saying they won't support others. One type they made clear they don't want to support is groups that are organizing stalking strangers' hatches without the user agreeing to it.

A group of people looking to sell g1 dragons and advertise to willing g1 buyers that specify what they want, they actually may be better suited by expanding and improving sales tools they failed on rather than ping lists.

"One type they made clear they don't want to support is groups that are organizing stalking strangers' hatches without the user agreeing to it."

this response by mousemod annoys me so much, because it's so out of left field??? it's fundamentally misunderstanding what the G1 pinglist is even for. it's for sellers selling their own dragons, not somehow stalking and pinging other people for a third party's hatches that they didn't consent to. like who is doing this. kinda making me furious because people who don't use G1 have a shitty false idea of what the pinglist is actually for and staff is proving they still don't understand their own userbase at all

I think that was the race to 8 million group being used as an unacceptablepkaystyle, personally. That shitshow needs banned after making the site unusable.

uh oh, what happened there?

Re: mass pings are going to be killed and it’s going to kill the economy

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-01 13:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: mass pings are going to be killed and it’s going to kill the economy

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-02 01:59 (UTC) - Expand

Re: mass pings are going to be killed and it’s going to kill the economy

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-02 22:47 (UTC) - Expand

Was THAT the reason the site was so laggy? How did that happen?

Re: mass pings are going to be killed and it’s going to kill the economy

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-01 17:13 (UTC) - Expand

Re: mass pings are going to be killed and it’s going to kill the economy

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-01 18:24 (UTC) - Expand

Re: mass pings are going to be killed and it’s going to kill the economy

(Anonymous) - 2023-11-02 08:06 (UTC) - Expand

for reference for anyone who hasn’t seen the reply, this is what we’re discussing:

- “We must be mindful that outside of Dominance and skins and accents, we do not provide site/staff sanction for any one particular style of player-driven gameplay. If someone prefers a specific type of dragon to collect, that's fully valid and we encourage you on your acquisition journey! But what are the implications and how would it backfire if we give official site-supported nods to player-driven gameplay styles? Especially if the playstyle involves monitoring for dragons hatched by players who did not consent to participate in the group? Is what amounts to monitoring other players' hatches something we can officially condone by crafting a system to specifically support that playstyle?”

yeah, maybe the wording there confused me? to myself and some people who are more invested in g1 collecting, who i do not want to name on a drama com, it felt that ‘g1 collecting’ and ‘players who monitor other players’ hatches’ were being grouped together - which all together felt like a misunderstanding of the g1 pinglist’s purpose. idk idk… i’m not getting myself worked up again, i’m not going to take what admins say in bad faith. i think this is just a clunky way to address a very large collecting community’s concerns, that’s all.

yeah I don't understand what those two groups have to do with each other? the whole point of me using the g1 pinglist to advertising my g1s is to reach people who AREN'T monitoring hatches lol

It's not just the tone. It's how aggressively you kept at it and did not stop, even after you no longer were adding anything useful. Telling staff they can't do what users did so don't try is not a option when it sounds like ping list harassment is spreading.

i never said anything like that (‘don’t try’) though. not going to reiterate what i said in the reply above, but that’s… simply not what i feel about the situation. it’s being read into what i said, but the point is that it’s frustrating to be a member of a niche community and know that the resources it would take to support us would probably not be worth it in the long run. people who dgaf about skincents would be complaining if staff spent time developing a gasp clone rather than site features that everyone could enjoy… u_u

There is basically nothing that could occur from a dev team on a petsite that warrants how you reacted. If anything about a petsite gets you that heated you ought to step away for a bit. All you managed to do was make yourself look like an asshole.

Yeah, honestly, I have seen that attitude of 'staff can't replace gasp, so they should just forget about trying to fix harrasment issues and just ignore mass pings' elsewhere as well.

I feel that ultimately GASP (and some other massive pinglists) are going to have to change, but hopefully staff will be able to give a good substitute.

Maybe it would help to look at things from a different perspective than just massive pinglists.

Most people complaining are complaining about the UI of the pinglist so maybe staff should look into some sort of functionality where users can input criteria and they get notified about any skins that meet that (sort of like a search) when the artist submits the skin to said functionality.

(I don't plan to suggest this, because I don't have any experience with GASP, nor do I have any ideas because the above of how it would actually look. Just remove the need for pings altogether with things like GASP)

DA
God, I just don't really get the "kill the masspings so harassment stops" point - if staff are planning on letting max12 pings live, so they obviously have tools to count the pings beforehand, so just add another option of disabling non-pinglist masspings and be done. Viola, harassment is stopped yet masspings live. Frankly, that whole point is the peak example of throwing the baby with the bathwater as trying to stop a dozen baddies instead will kill entire communities.

NAYRT
While disabling mass pings on a user's end would be a neat and helpful feature for most I don't think it would really do anything to stop the harassment problem staff is trying to solve. Like, what is a person supposed to do if they do want to follow Dom Watch or GASP and they're being harassed? Then they're just forced to completely check out of those things just to not get pings. And disabling pings is already an option, so if they were fine with checking out of the game they probably would've disabled all pings in the first place.

AYRT

The issue with this, and similiar suggestions, is that Person A is being harassed by someone using GASP to add them to plague skins. They don't like plague skins. However, they DO like pastel skins, or arcane skins.

So, they both don't want to be pinged for plague skins, but they DO want to be pinged for Arcane/Pastel skins.

Just disabling masspings would mean they wouldn't be able to be pinged for the things they DO want just to stop the harassment. In effect it isn't doing anything to stop the harassers, but is punishing the person being harassed by forcing them to either accept the harassment or give up trying to find skins that fit their requirements.

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