Damnit, Arcanist

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[(Anonymous)]

Honestly, I don't believe it was large scale confusion. I think it's a few loud people trying to stir up drama anon since they can act like one person is a crowd.

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe not large scale confusion. But there was definitely confusion for more than just a handful of people. If two flights are listed as conquesting, it's a pretty reasonable assumption that they are battling. This should have been listed as a joint profit push in Dom Watch. Even solo conquests usually have a basic public buy. Not everyone is being loud and trying to stir up drama, but I know several people who had leveled and stored fodder in preparation for this week. Beyond the cash grab, which is obviously a factor, battles are few and far between these days - some of us do like to support other flights and get excited for their battles. What is the point of including all of the team picking stuff in Dom Watch if there is no actual way to support either flight?

[(Anonymous)]

DA

"This should have been listed as a joint profit push"

But it's not a profit push because the expectation is that either Water or Wind will end up in first place. Water ran into the exact opposite problem with their Pumpkin Push in which they intended to get first place but had put it in DW as a profit push. People got mad and are getting mad now, so you can't win either way.

I also really question why people thought this was a battle when:
(1) Both flights just had their festivals
(2) There wasn't the usual pre-battle preparation or level of excitement; surely we would have heard from Water or Wind flight members if it was going to be a big, proper battle? Or seen threads in FRD or even here about who people were expecting to win?
(3) Water is fighting Fire in October, so why would they do two battles in one year?
(4) DW labeled it differently from the battle with Fire (saying with instead of vs)

I really think people are getting upset because of their own assumptions. Nothing except the fact that two flights were conquesting during the same week indicated that this was going to be a battle of any kind, and it IS a competition for first place, just not one involving OOF.

[(Anonymous)]

Seriously, I could see someone hopping in trying to conquest with the anniversary in hopes something they could get extra benefit is done with 2 profit pushes.

[(Anonymous)]

Not everyone is mad, some people are just confused and/or disappointed. If you aren't spending money, it's a profit push. There have been plenty of profit pushes were flights are also hoping to place.

1. Festivals have no bearing. Flights have battled in the months before and after their festival on several occasions.
2. Not sure about everyone else, but I assumed that no OOF boarding was part of whatever the battle terms were.
3. Two battles in one year is not unheard of. Maybe in the last year or two since battles have become so expensive, but Water could be ambitious. Who knows. Also, the current DW only goes up through September.
4. Using the word "with" is vague at best. It could be interpreted in several ways. I read it as these two flights are conquesting with each other. Ergo, battle. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Perhaps Dom Watch needs a key with clearer labeling.

[(Anonymous)]

+1

its weird that this is being interpreted as some outrage against wind/water. all ive seen is confusion or disappointment, and some criticism provided because of that. maybe theres some people mad in discords, but i havent seen any.

[(Anonymous)]

da

tbh i disagree about profit pushes; when i was involved in dom in my flight we all thought a profit push is purely when you expect to profit even if you place before third. if a flight is intending to get first w/o a public buy they might spend money buying leveled fodder off the AH but it wouldn't be obvious to OOF.

also, DW does list pushes after september in a document that's linked in the main post.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRYIVZ6pnTIIeRuAekjYcSyBeDTkLr7vjd3md5vV0D0Ak3d7ymdG64yUWJx_9iTLqUJy0RBnF4Br94Z/pubhtml?gid=547456187&single=true

the labeling looks pretty clear to me. in september, earth and and shadow are both conquesting "with". i'm gonna go ahead and guess that's not a battle given who's involved. then water vs fire in october and light vs arcane at the end of november, both clearly label as "vs". DW seems to be pretty consistent.

[(Anonymous)]

pebble here, yes it's not a proper conquest in terms of a battle. it's more earth supporting shadow who will be pushing for first.

[(Anonymous)]

That's the thing. Someone confused/disappointed needs to point out the problem so Domwatch can fix it for the future. Stop yelling at the flights and start saying battles need a battle label to the Dom Watch runner. I think the choice of wording is on them.

If you think someone is doing two battles in a year, your flight hasn't done a good all out battle in years. The stress of my last flight's battle made me stop dom participation. Because it kills all desire to want to deal with it. I went from hundreds of fodder to 14-20 at most in a push to get inflight badges if they catch my eye.

[(Anonymous)]

Dom Watch needs better push classification, yes, but Dom Watch shares what the Dom leads tell them. If the Dom leads provide misleading information, then why is it exclusively Dom Watch's fault for posting what they were told? They're both at fault here, imo

[(Anonymous)]

jfc it's not misleading information or the domwatch post would have in fact said "vs." to begin with; begging you all to get this through your heads.

this is the established domwatch terminology, and it's one thing if you'd like to advocate for the terminology itself being made clearer—but acting like being actively "misled" has any part in this makes it clear that actually you have no one to blame but yourself, and your own attitude that conquesting flights must by default exist as cash cows.

sa

[(Anonymous)]

for the sake of water and wind, I want to clarify that I'm not in either flight; just someone who has been involved in my own flight's dom and is very frustrated by the experience of watching people froth at the mouths to profit off battles only to turn around and wonder why there aren't more of them.

[(Anonymous)]

Something can be misleading without having any malice behind it. You seem to be very kneejerk defensive on this, and I assume it's probably from past drama I missed, but just saying that information is misleading doesn't necessitate that there's some mastermind behind the scenes actively trying to deceive people. Just using poor wording (as is the care here, regardless of whether that's on Dom Watch, the flight heads, or more likely a mix of both) is enough to be misleading, but it's very possible (likely, in fact!) that everyone involved just thought the wording was clear and accurate to what they understood the push to be, and it was only when that got out to people who didn't have prior context ahead of time that it showed that people didn't necessarily have the same understanding as the organizers.

"With" and "Vs" are such a small change that I definitely think there needs to be some more distinction there. I could totally see myself missing that or just thinking it was different wording from a different host.

And before anyone gets preachy at me for "vulture" behaviour or whatever -- I haven't made a single gem off other flights' dom pushes in over 5 years. The only involvement I've had in dom during that time is in donating my own items and funds to dom banks, and before that, my primary involvement was in raffle attending (and occasionally in helping out with organizing). Never has dom been a significant source of my income, and in fact, I tend to be biased in favour of the pushing flights and their dom heads, rather than the people on the outside.

ayrt

[(Anonymous)]

you know, that's a fair point

I do think that "mislead" has a fairly strong negative inflection to it, so I want to defend my own reaction as not solely kneejerk.
but I also always appreciate more positive/sympathetic readings of others' intents, and this is one I honestly missed—probably in part due to, yeah, confirmation bias with having seen some very pissy-sounding comments already.

[(Anonymous)]

Haven't really seen a whole lot of people yelling, just voicing their disappointment. I think the point is that the wording in DW is ambiguous. Some people expected something completely different than what was actually planned. The amount of information that we were all apparently supposed to infer from the word "with" is a bit ridiculous, whether that's on the people running DW or the flights relaying the information.

A clear labeling system in DW would solve that problem.

And honestly, the dom culture is different in each flight. What you find stressful, other people might thrive on. Flights often all-out battled more than once a year. In my flight we stopped battling as often because of cost, not stress. Which is what I'm assuming most flights have done. I just thought Water was being extra ambitious in planning their battles this year.

[(Anonymous)]

i honestly assumed water was up for the challenge considering how often their members talk about how hard they go and how big water is on dominance. theyve definitely pitched themselves on ARR as a "push and place as often as possible" dom culture so i didn't question them battling twice in one year. guess i was wrong tho

[(Anonymous)]

We're big on Dom culture and pushing. We aren't big on sabotaging ourselves, and frankly, 2 battles in a year would burn our small flight out and hand battle number two to whoever we challenged due to lack of funds.

We know how much a modern Dom battle can cost. It took us this long to recover from battling Earth. We're not going into a battle half assed.

And honestly, the way you're putting it shows that you aren't thinking about facts and logic and are just being a brat. No flight that hopes to win would do what you propose.

Please, whatever flight you're in, put it to your leadership that you want two full conquest battles in a year. I'm sure they'll get right on that.

[(Anonymous)]

dude you just owned me so hard with facts and logic shapiro style. my sincerest apologies for thinking that water was up for a fight.

[(Anonymous)]

Droplet here (not the same one as above) - Yes sometimes we decide if we see ourselves place high up on the board to try and score among the top 3, and yes we like to throw in extra fodder for that, and we put all of our effort into big Conquest pushes that are vs

But that does not mean we cannot have fun joint pushes that aren't us going all out (esp with an already pointed out big Vs battle happening later this year). Wind and Water is still aiming to score first, conquest PRIMARILY MEANS THAT, you are all just complaiming cause you can't cash out on us

Like Water has been pretty much the one flight of it's size making big Conquest pushes every 1-2 years, and I have not seen any other flights recently do that. Hell I would love to profit from other flights Conquesting as well in a big Vs manner, but you wont see me whining when its primarily been our flight doing big yearly pushes that got intense lately.

You all have to step up your game in other flights + the nonny calling people vultures for constantly wanting to profit off other flights doing big pushes but not pitch in effort and energy into their own flight's to have equally intense pushes is correct.

Also if this makes you claim we are not as much into Dom then idk what to tell you, like that is the stupidest takeaway from all of this

[(Anonymous)]

if the wording was ambiguous enough that many people were confused - not just a few people on salt sites, ive seen people in discords and the dom watch thread itself being confused - the dom orgs should take this as clear proof that they should use a different term next time they have a push like this. tell dom watch to call it a soft conquest, internal conquest, IF-only battle, IF challenge, whatever. maybe come up an entirely new term for this style of push that fits with whatever unique approach they are taking that week. but water has now had 2 situations where the public definition of their push confused people, and they probably will keep confusing people if it doesn't change. people should not need to know months worth of dom schedules and stalk FRD to "correctly" interpret the publicly-made plans.

[(Anonymous)]

Droplet here, we fixed our terminology and are getting shit on for fixing it here.

"You're going too hard for a profit push, label it conquest." For the pumpkin push, where we had no outflight buy but I believe someone decided to buy mercs privately and we go hard.

"You're not going hard enough to call it conquest." Here, when we're operating the same way, except I don't think anyone is hiring mercs.

[(Anonymous)]

honestly labelling it 'joint/event conquest with no oof support' would have fixed a lot of it. unfortunately it's being boiled into one or two terms. with/vs is vague especially to people newer to dom, and obviously even people who have lots of experience with it. it's easy enough to just add some more words in there to clarify shit.

da

[(Anonymous)]

literally just spitballing here, but do you think "X conquesting together with Y" might have worked as a more intuitive phrasing/terminology?

I suspect that, after all this, DomWatch will be getting even more specific than that going forward, but I can't help but wonder if that single extra word might have made the meaning clearer while remaining concise (which I assume was the original goal of the phrasing).

Re: da

[(Anonymous)]

DA
In-flight battle, battle without oof (support), even just "no PB/raffle" might be clearer than vs and with.

In the grand scheme of things, vs and with didn't matter, it looks like it's mostly if there would or wouldn't be a PB/Raffle, and "" didn't imply there wouldn't be - ie. average payout PB, frozen at +250t PB, an oofr, whatever.

So I guess it would be easier to list flight: profit/conquest - with/without PB/raffle (dragon buy of any sort). *Shrug*

Re: da

[(Anonymous)]

SA
"With" didn't imply there wouldn't be