What do people think of the issue of censoring genes on Discord? People on SMR are only really able to bleat about ableism so I'm hoping for a more nuanced discussion here... These are the relevant points in the discussion from what I understand (I DON'T necessarily agree or disagree with any of these FYI, I'm just writing them down):
1. Some people with memory issues have a tough time remembering what to spoiler. For people on mobile or with poor eyesight or various other issues, even constantly consulting a list can be taxing and some just don't bother posting dragon images.
2. Are most people who want spoilering actually triggered by images, or do they just think it's icky and they don't want to see it? Alternately, are people with "memory issues" actually burdened by spoiler lists, or could some of them put in more effort? Where is the line between being actually triggered and just experiencing discomfort?
3. How are people who require spoilering able to play FR at all? Does it make sense to require spoilering of game content in a Discord for the game?
4. Are there potential solutions beyond "just join a different Discord?" Most Discords, including all the major flight Discords, IIRC, seem to require some degree of spoilering, so "just join a different Discord" isn't really a solution and would just end up shutting people out of
5. When it comes to memory issues versus needing things spoilered, why is the latter regarded as taking precedence? Why is it the "winning" disability when it comes to deciding who to accomodate? (Bad phrasing, sorry, hopefully you get what I mean.)
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My personal theory on point 5 is that trigger tagging carries more moral weight because it's under the same umbrella of tagging for very serious things, like mental health/sexual violence/etc. content warnings. So it carries some maybe unearned moral weight because it is associated with that, and the norm in online communities such as these is to spoiler/tag/TW other things already so people assume that adding to the list of things needing tagging is normal and appropriate.
I'd be interested to hear everyone else's thoughts!
I mean, most of the time when I see that I see entitled kids throwing their weight around trying to see just how much of the community they can bend to their will to feel important. Kids on the internet are also known to lie about 'sensitivities' to get sympathy/perks/etc, and if it seems too ridiculous to be true in terms of a spoiler, it probably is.
As someone with sensory processing disorder, my sympathy goes out to people with actual visual sensitivities, and I understand content that is generally triggering to things like epilepsy deserves spoilers (so the flashing, strobing variety), but I just don't see that happening in FR genes too often. Maybe jaguar/rosette at most, but I'm not sure if that kind of content genuinely requires a spoiler.
And for the people who are afraid of gene art (not talking about accents) because they are too 'adult' or 'triggering' in ways other than a sensory issue (literally heard of people demanding spoilers for the ghost gene)....you are on a 13+ dragon site. This is not a game for young children (and I'm pretty sure the G-rated real world is going to have some skeletons, especially during Halloween).
blogpost typed up and deleted lol but it is absolutely a power trip for some people if you let it be, and my good will for those who might genuinely need tags has been completely drained by bad faith actors. my internet viewing experience is my own responsibility, and i now believe that to be true for everyone else too
not to say those discords with long trigger lists can't exist, but i feel very bad for anyone in there being guilted into the mindset that they did something horribly wrong for posting a dragon someone else just didn't like... especially those cases where players mini-mod and say "yeah it's not on the triggers list but it might bother someone, you should spoiler it"
I don't know what the answer "should" be to all of these, but I do know it grates on my nerves when people are all like "it costs nothing to tag!" or "just check the list!" or "it's so easy, if you won't do it you're just a bad person"
Just because something is easy for you doesn't mean it's easy for everyone.
And it is very very disheartening to consistently be the person who "looses" in a case of competing needs :/
(frozen comment) Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
I'm sorry, but speaking as someone with actual doctor diagnosed memory issues as a part of a childhood disability case(My short term memory randomly dumps things before they become long term memory, so sometimes, I can't remember something I looked at 30 seconds ago), most Discords like that have a list. I use it.
Ignoring eye sight issues, which I've almost never seen cited, if you are not able to remember and unwilling to check a list with clearly stated rules? That's just being lazy. If you can't be assed to check, don't post dragon images.
One player's shit memory and unwillingness to take the time to check doesn't trump other users being able to be comfortable. We can take the time to check a list.
By the "I don't want to check what's acceptable" logic, someone could use that to say I can't remember what people consider serious outside dragon game stuff and freely post those serious things you mentioned because they aren't impacted by them personally. I have seen users say that before.
As for the join another Discord option, I'm in a smaller scale invite only FR community that has no spoiler requirements. If enough people hate spoilering, make your own server. Mind, I question how good the community of a "fuck your image sensitivities and phonias, I want to post what I want" would end up.
As for how can a user easily triggered play? You can always block images, manually allowing safe ones. It's easy enough to check a gene list on site before viewing a dragon picture if you block by default.
(frozen comment) Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
I am pretty baffled that you, as someone who has actual memory issues, are so eager to dismiss other people with memory issues, who perhaps don't have the same experience as you, as lazy.
Maybe I don't hang around the tumblr crowd enough so this might be a hot take but we're all internet strangers here, can't expect everyone to cater to each and every one. If someone needs a dragon gene censored in a Discord centered around game with said dragon gene then maybe they should reevaluate their choice of game. In the same vein, if someone has problems following certain rules that the community set for themselves due to memory issues then maybe think about not participating in the said server.
This is literally just a dragon game man, it ain't that deep. Nobody is forced to continue playing a game or participate in a Discord server that causes them issues.
Seriously, the replies over there basically a bunch of Tumblr edgelords screaming how dare you make and expect me to follow clearly written rules?
There are way to limit exposure to things that make you uncomfortable on site. These rules are set by communities to allow everyone to be able to interact on Discords.
I will never understand why people think following rules is such a big deal. It's just like the multiaccounting shitfest. "What do you mean I'm expected to follow rules I agreed to follow?"
Ime as an occasional mod, the practicality of this really comes down to the size and nature of a discord. In a discord with 10 or 15 members max, keeping an updated list of requested spoilers that include everybody's triggers, (whether or not the members interpret trigger to mean full blown trauma/phobias or just something that's a big ick factor) is pretty doable and makes sense from the perspective that you know these are the people you'll be having conversations with. For example, there's someone in a small discord that requested all discussion and pictures of X animal be spoilered because they have a full blown phobia of X animal. That person is likely to be part of the conversation if you're talking in the small server, so it makes sense to accommodate this type of specific request in this setting. People can still abuse this type of list to try and control discussion though, which I've seen happen at least once in a server with well meaning mods that didn't understand that their huge, mushrooming spoiler list was the result of one bad actor attempting to bully and dominate other members.
In a server with 500 or 1000 people, compiling a list of specific personal triggers from members is impractical, and usually you get a compromise where mods will include a short, general list of common triggers, plus a few relevant to the topic of the discord. I've seen servers that try to accommodate everyone's personal trigger by using a big pinned list, and while this might actually work for groups of middling sizes where the majority of people happen to be used to constantly checking a list before posting, it quickly becomes unwieldy and a source of chaos and constant drama in servers that rapidly gain new members.
When it comes to requesting that specific genes be spoilered... I don't doubt that this request might well be coming from someone that doesn't really have a phobia or trauma around the gene, and just doesn't want to put up with the mild discomfort of seeing it, but it's going to be awkward and difficult as a mod to make that call on a case by case basis. Sometimes people honestly just have niche phobias. Deciding what does and doesn't get put on the list of requested censored topics is always going to be compromise, and imo should have more to do with the balance of functional practicality within the size of the server rather than scrutinizing the individual request to deem if a topic is a "valid" trigger or not. (Though in some specific cases it might be worth scrutinizing.)
Yeah this. In a smaller group, among friends, it can be manageable.
But I've joined large a Discord before that had a very detailed trigger list - literal pages of scrolling, even on desktop. I basically took one look at that and was immediately overwhelmed. I don't think I ever posted anything in that Discord. The thought of having to cross-check everything against that list was too daunting.
I think it comes from a good place. People want to be accommodating. But there's a certain threshold where, in trying to accommodate everyone's triggers, they may not realize they're excluding other people with different sorts of needs.
And it's hurtful to be told that your needs aren't real needs, that you're just lazy and selfish and a bad person, and if you really cared you'd just try harder.
Many discords also require spoiler tags for specific eye types. I'm not sure if this adds to the conversation or not since you specifically mentioned genes. But Shadow primal eyes are actually a trigger for me. It's more than being viscerally uncomfortable. I have ocd and issues with some eye horror. Sometimes shadow primal will just continually loop in my head if I see it in the wild. I have had panic attacks. I'm not going to tell other people how to play or avoid the site, but I do appreciate when discords spoiler it. (I find that I don't run into it very often on site unless I'm just perusing a shadow lair.)
There aren't any genes that bother me in particular, but I also don't mind taking the time to add spoiler tags to images if I know that they might make other people uncomfortable. I figure that if specific eye types bother me, then it's not unreasonable to assume that some gene types do actually trigger some people. I do believe that everyone needs to kind of curate their own online experience, but I also don't think taking a few seconds out of your day to make other people comfortable, even if you don't really get it, is that much to ask.
All we can do is attempt to accommodate people in a reasonable way. It feels like having the list readily available is an accommodation in itself. Devices, mobile phones, and discord have font settings that increase the size for people with vision issues. (I have both memory issues and problems with reading small text.) It's not perfect by any means, but I don't feel like any specific disability is "winning".
I don't have such a strong reaction as you most of the time, but eye gore/horror makes me physically ill -- including literal physical reactions I won't get into for the sake of not grossing people out, but that are a genuine problem. Shadow and Plague primal are the only things on the entire site that do this for me, and it's not a small fraction of the userbase that has these issues.
As long as a server has a clear, concise list easily referred to (ideally just make a bulleted list in a rules channel, or hell if you wanna really please 'both sides,' an entire "spoilered content" list channel just for that), I don't see how it's so unreasonable to take 30 seconds to give it a quick scroll when you want to post a dragon -- even if you're physically incapable of remembering a single item on the list for more than 30 seconds at a time, you can still just double check whether the eyes/genes line up.
I mean, I do feel like I am "losing" when I'm told that my needs can't be met because someone else's take precedence, or when they're dismissed entirely because "it's not that hard to spoiler, suck it up and get over it." One idea I saw was that there could be two channels, or a non-spoiler thread in a dragon share channel. Even if a solution that meets both needs can't be found, some acknowledgement that my issues are, for one thing, not completely made up or trivial would be nice!
Discord's technology currently doesn't help much when it comes to content filtering, so the gene/eye spoilering is basically a cultural bandaid for it. I don't blame people for trying to make it a thing for their own sanity. This sense of responsibility does indeed lock me out of the bigger servers too. I also forget what to spoiler and fear social shaming.
I have ideas for what Discord's development team needs to implement to lighten the individual responsibility for spoilering content. I will list them if it's relevant to the conversation here.
I disagree with your 'moral weight' comment btw; individual people shouldn't have to weigh whether something is unpleasant enough for them to not have to interact with it. Maybe what you mean is that censoring niche/SFW triggers and phobias for everyone encumbers people who don't need those warnings.
It sucks to be on both sides of this issue, but having easily-accessible, clear and concise lists is just the best solution/compromise for both. Having nothing spoilered sucks on one end, and having long-ass lists with way more information than necessary that are cumbersome to browse sucks for people with memory issues. I encourage discords to have a list of what needs to be spoilered, and to keep it as minimal in format as possible.
I think my personal best way to do it would be to have a channel right below the rules channel called like "spoilered fr content" and have it have a clear, concise list. Something like, for example:
"Please spoiler the following content on dragons when posted in this discord: - Shadow/Plague Primal - Multigaze - Jaguar/Rosette - Gembond"
(Idk what other new genes/other stuff may be triggering to people, I was just listing the three things I've seen mentioned most as well as something vaguely similar to make the list slightly longer in size.)
Something clear and concise like that is a fair compromise where it's very accessible to check if you have memory problems (no one is saying anyone has to remember anything, and as long as the list is clear and concise, it shouldn't be an issue to check your dragon you want to post), but also accommodates for the most common triggers.
Ultimately, it comes down to communicating one's needs. If a person has memory problems and the list format of the discords they're in is written weirdly, hard to find, or has way more information than needed which makes it a longer read and they've forgotten the beginning by the time they get to the end (trust me, been there, done that...), then they should poke at a member of the mod team and ask them if it can be formatted differently to make it easier on them. Chances are, as long as they're polite and considerate about it and express what they need, the mods will be willing to work with them on finding a middle ground that also works for the memory issues.
If they're not willing to consult a list *at all* ever even when formatted clearly and cleanly, yeah, no, that's just being insensitive and selfish. (I do genuinely try to take most users who claim a disability at face value and work with them to try and find solutions, but sometimes you do run into someone who's very clearly just trying to not bother with common courtesy and play their way and only their way with getting exceptions baked into rules for their royal ass.)
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As a side note to you on your personal theory -- I'm assuming you have no problems with content on the site, but for me personally, shadow/plague primal make me physically ill to see. Like literally physically ill. I'm not going into the details on this post directly to avoid making other people uncomfortable, but if you really need to know, you can check https://pastebin.com/HUAkggsn which explains the symptoms I personally experience. Something doesn't have to be related to RL traumatic events to still provoke a visceral, physical reaction in someone, and I wouldn't considered it "unearned moral weight" to want to not be made ill just because I'm in a community discord.
Also, as a note to your point 3 -- I haven't gone to Dragon Share since the release of primal eyes. I don't really actively play much anymore in general, but when I did, it was easy enough to avoid the primal eyes because the main things I did were economy related. I'd see dragons in the coli when buying fodder or when raffle attending, but if I knew I was going to be doing an activity like that where I would see random dragons that may have Primal, I'd just set the site to 70% zoom and between that and the smaller previews in the AH and PAs, it was extremely easy to just miss the primal eyes and not see them if they ever existed. (I did also have a note on my attendant cell to "pls don't send me shadow/plague primal," but I took my own steps to mitigate it on my end as well.) I don't know whether that would help with the trypophobia genes that are on much larger sections of dragons, but at least for something like primal eyes, it was very doable. I did unfortunately have to leave a few community discord servers that weren't willing to accommodate on the primal eyes, but ultimately, most of them ended up understanding and being willing to work with people who communicated their needs.
Also, generally, it does make sense to request spoilering in a discord server because generally, a user cannot prevent discord from loading images themselves (adblock) or change the size at which the image is displayed (zoom level on a browser). The most common workarounds that work on the site itself on the user's end just don't work in community discords, so the only option left really as a bandaid fix is to just have the "spoiler it if you're gonna post it" option.
AYRT Thanks very much for your detailed comments! I think I didn't explain my unearned moral weight comment properly. I'm not passing judgement on anyone specific and their triggers or squicks or whatever. I was just trying to find an explanation for why it's always assumed that things must be tagged in a situation in which we're attempting to balance memory issue needs and tagging needs, even if they cause a lower level of harm than a trauma trigger. Someone just finding something icky and not being triggered or otherwise having their day ruined seems to carry the same weight as someone who IS actually getting their day ruined. I think there is unearned moral weight in that case because we generally agree on the need to tag triggers, so any other requests for tagging, even if they don't cause harm, are treated with more gravity than they would be otherwise. I hope that makes sense.
There have been a lot of good and thoughtful comments in this thread already, but I'd like to take a moment to also emphasize:
I think people (not unjustifiably) frustrated by unwieldy long lists of dragon share spoiler requirements sometimes fall into a bit of a Dragon Triggers Georg fallacy, with the whole "well if you need all this censored, how are you even playing the game!?" thing. The reality is that most people with these visual triggers have Just One Thing that messes with them, and which they probably have solutions to manage on their own in the game itself. It's simply a matter of what happens when a server has a large population and you get a list that accounts for many different individual "Just One Thing" needs. And there's not a moral component to it working out like that; it's just how it goes.
(Personally, I am fond of the solution that I know at minimum Fire and Nature use, which is two different Dragon Share channels, with and without spoiler rules.)
Yeah, I think this is what a lot of people just forget.
They see a huge list of things that need to be tagged and start getting into the mindset of every person who wants something tagged wants ALL those things tagged.
I don't use discord, but I do have things I don't want to see on FR.
The top of the list is spiders. Period. I have to deal with spiders in real life occasionally, so when I am doing my 'relaxing' by playing games, I do not want to have to deal with them there. But, I can use adblock to block spider images on FR, but since I don't use discord, I don't know whether I would be able to do it there, and even then it could come down to having to basically adblock every single spider image, since it works off of url, and if the url is unique, it doesn't matter whether it is the same exact image.
Next is keel. I do not like plague primal or shadow primal or multigaze, but I don't have any physical reactions to them, just a bit of disgust and desire to look away. Keel on the other hand makes my skin crawl. Like there are things on me. I eventually realized that Keel reminds me of ticks. Fortunately for me, keel is not a well liked gene and even with the reaction to keel, I can actually take it in some cases (like chocolate chip cookie, or 'baking' dragons)
Last for my personal issues are plague/shadow primal and multigaze, but again those are generally fairly easy to avoid and/or scroll/click away from when encountered.
I definitely feel that FR needs the ability to censor images for people who have that 'just one thing' they dislike and want to avoid. I know it would be a ton of work, but I do feel the pay off would be worth it.
weighing in as someone who both needs trigger warnings (both common and uncommon for warning tags, including but not exclusively dragon stuff), AND greatly struggles with providing trigger warnings:
it's frustrating, and there's no easy solution that works for everyone.
i've been in discords that have long lists of things to spoiler, including genes/eyes. i've moderated some of those discords.
while i will be using general terms, dragons are a big part of that.
so to discuss these particular points from my own experience:
1. yeah, i have memory issues, and browsing the long lists can be taxing. it sucks. i also have overwhelming anxiety related to my inability to retain information. before posting an image that i feel is "borderline" or might need tagging i will repeatedly re-read the list and look at the image and upload the image but not hit enter and re-read the tag list again. sometimes for wayyy too long. sometimes i just give up and don't post the image because i realise that i don't care THAT MUCH about sharing it that it's worth all that anxiety. this is definitely worse in discords i moderate because i feel breaking a rule (or a generally-agreed upon social convention that isn't technically officially a rule) while being a moderator is a much worse infraction than doing so otherwise.
2a. "Are most people who want spoilering actually triggered by images, or do they just think it's icky and they don't want to see it?"
that's a question i ask myself sometimes, about both other's triggers and my own. when i find myself thinking about this, i realise that i've internalised a sentiment that is at best dismissive of others and lacking in empathy, and at worst actively ableist and harmful to myself and others.
there are certain things in images that make me feel physically dirty, and i need to shower to make it go away. how strong and distressing this dirty feeling is and whether i can resist the urge to shower varies for a lot of reasons that no-one, not even i, can fully account for at any given time.
this overwhelming feeling of dirtyness often starts out with a pretty vague "icky" feeling. if i manage things right, sometimes, i can keep it to that level and not let it get so bad that i need to shower.
i'm going to repeat something i said to my therapist recently: for me, triggers are like radiation. a small exposure now and then probably isn't going to cause any noticable harm. but repeated small exposures add up to enormous problems, even though no individual exposure is a big deal on its own.
so, yeah, seeing triggering content probably isn't going to cause a full-on meltdown every time, and might in fact only bring about an icky feeling in the triggered person. but that doesn't necessarily mean exposure to the content didn't harm them.
2b. "Alternately, are people with "memory issues" actually burdened by spoiler lists, or could some of them put in more effort?"
i mean......yes to both? at least for me. sometimes i definitely just don't bother posting an image because i don't want to have to check the spoiler list. it's one relatively minor inconvenience that i just don't want to deal with at that moment, so i don't deal with the inconvenience by not sharing the content which might warrant a warning, especially if i'm in a server with a particularly lengthy trigger list.
but i've also posted unwarned content that should have been warned for out of sheer forgetfulness. an important part of fighting my anxiety is not constantly checking things. having to check a list of things to warn for is a really big problem for mee (see 1), so sometimes i don't check. i just post things with the (entirely fake) confidence that it'll be fine. and 99% of the time it is but there have been a couple of incidents of me Fucking Up™ and not spoilering something that should definitely have been spoiled. this significantly worsened my anxiety about this!
3. see 2a above for "triggers are like radiation". in-game, it's usually easier to avoid triggering images than it is on a discord. unless you're browsing the dragon share forums (which i don't recommend if specifics about dragon art can cause you harm), pretty much the only time you're going to see full-size dragon art is after clicking on a much smaller icon of that dragon. the AH and lair avatars are small enough to conceal details that could be distressing, but not so small that you don't have at least a vague idea of what that dragon looks like. and, more to the point, the tooltips explicitly tell you about their genes and eye type. if you have any doubt about whether a dragon is safe to look at, that tooltip will let you know!
also it's possible to block scry images that contain genes/eyes you want to avoid because of how scry urls work. just add the string that corresponds to the thing you're avoiding to the following filter for your adblocker:
the above blocks jaguar on modern breeds. this only works for scries, but if like me you buy a lot of first gens, blocking scries in bios is very helpful.
4. nevermind the big flight discords, i'm in small friend discords that maintain trigger lists. it's really difficult to find a discord that doesn't. they're definitely getting more common, not just for flight rising but in general.
the presence of trigger lists changes the whole atmosphere and social functioning of a discord in more ways than just "social pressure to warn/fear of shaming" and "avoidance of spaces that have trigger lists".
just going by what i've observed both myself and others doing, if a discord usually requires warnings/spoilers for the "main" channels, but has one or more channels where those rules don't apply...the no-spoiler channels start getting milder and milder, with more and more content being posted to them and discussion of that content, and then the no-spoiler channel becomes a main channel and at some point the mods are likely to decide to add it to the list of channels requiring spoilers.
and even if it doesn't reach that inevitable conclusion of becoming a spoiled channel, the other issues persist and only get worse.
it's my experience that not only are most people willing (if not happy) to respect requests for trigger warnings and spoilers, they are WAY TOO EAGER about it, to the point that their eagerness and lack of nuance just causes problems.
they mean well. most of these people themselves have triggers (or did in the past) and thus want to make sure they're not exposing someone to something they don't want to be exposed to. but this overzealous use of warnings for the mildest of content renders the warning less useful for the people who need it.
if a discord has a no-spoil channel, people anxious about falling afoul of rules they don't fully understand, or failing to warn for triggers they don't fully understand, will use it for anything they're not 100% confident is safe to post. which, given that the list of possible triggers is almost infinite, can be anything, especially if the discord's trigger list is particularly long or vague.
in one discord, i used to avoid the no-spoil channel because it frequently contained the kind of stuff i definitely didn't want to see. but over time, people lost confidence in their ability to judge whether something was okay, or due to participation in other discords actively felt it might not be safe. so they started posting stuff that really didn't need to be there in the no-spoil channel because it's the only channel where you can't get in trouble for not spoiling.
unfortunately, some things i really enjoy seeing and talking about are pretty common triggers. so, even though there was not and never has been a need to warn for/spoil those things in that discord, they started appearing in the no-spoil channel. soon enough, they were gone from other channels and existed exclusively in no-spoil. that server's no-spoil channel is now effectively #thing-i-like-discussion.
occasionally, it also sees use as an actual no-spoil channel and stuff i REALLY cannot handle seeing gets posted in there. it's infrequently enough that it catches me by surprise every time. i can't complain about seeing it because it is being posted in the channel where it absolutely belongs. i feel it's not my place to complain about the channel becoming #thing-i-like-discussion because that's become the norm there, even though i've been there long enough to remember when it wasn't, and i'd be questioning an established social norm that everyone else seems comfortable with. i'd likely also bring the very existence of the no-spoil channel into question, since it was originally created just to accommodate my triggers.
i experience similar issues (thing i like being posted in no-spoil channels alongside my actual triggers) in other discords, but it's definitely a bigger deal to me that it happens in this one because of the slow evolution over time and because i feel i'm the only one with a problem with it.
so i really don't think no-spoil channels are the solution people want it to be - and believe me, i wanted it to be the solution too.
personally, i think a technical solution would help.
if you've ever submitted anything to a tumblr blog, you've probably had to click - or at least seen - the tag checkboxes blogs can provide for submissions. those are excellent for this kind of problem, and i think they are PARTLY - definitely not entirely - a solution to this problem.
at the very least, a checkbox system would remove the anxiety of "did i forget something" and lessen the burden on those of us with memory issues. when uploading an image, all you have to do is read each checkbox in turn and decide whether or not the image you're uploading might qualify for it.
there would still be issues with over-warning and warning for unnecessary things, perhaps moreso than there is now, but i think it would help.
of course, the only way to get these checkboxes on discord is if discord as a company decides to add them, and i don't see that happening any time soon so i'm aware this isn't a real solution. but it is all i can think of right now.
5. i can actually answer this! perhaps because i'm unlucky enough to suffer from both.
violating a boundary is an act, and having a poor memory is an experience.
let's assume pomegranites are on the discord's spoil-and-warn list
i post a picture of my pomegranite breakfast. i don't spoil the image, i don't mention that there are pomegranites.
i've made an act here: posting the picture. this act has a consequence: someone who is triggered by pomegranites saw one.
i have committed a boundary violation.
the boundary - tag your pomegranites - was clearly expressed. the list of items to tag is publicly and freely visible at all times, and i can easily check it at my convenience as often as i need to.
in a straightforward, logical way, i had good reason to know about this boundary, and the person who expressed it had good reason to expect their boundary be respected.
but my memory is bad. i forgot the boundary existed. i thought the boundary existed in some other space, with some other person. i checked the list of boundaries, 5 minutes ago, and i don't remember seeing anything that would stop me discussing what i had for breakfast today.
my failure to remember the boundary doesn't change the fact that i violated it. i still commited an act, and that act caused harm. i can't un-do the harm by remembering the boundary too late.
my bad memory is a constant thing. it's a thing i know about. it's in my discord bio, so everyone who reads that knows about it too. it's very clearly a fact of my existence.
as such, it's a fact of my existence i'm expected to be aware of and account for. if i know i have a bad memory, why didn't i check the list of triggers before posting? i did, but BECAUSE i have a bad memory, i fucking forgot pomegranites were on that list in the 2 minutes it took me to upload the picture.
how many times am i expected to check? how often?
what of the fact that constantly checking the list of triggers actively harms me, because it triggers my anxiety? did i check it? recently? what if i'm remembering checking it yesterday, or the day before? even if i did check it a few minutes ago, what if it's changed since then? what if something new was added? what if i just didn't notice the pomegranites? my reading comprehension isn't great. i should check again.
it's a very, very frustrating experience i think for everyone on either side of it.
if your clearly-expressed boundaries are violated, that harms you and it's reasonable to express your frustrations with that.
if you struggle to remember people's boundaries, that can cause a lot of anxiety over respecting them correctly in the moment. this is much harder to talk about, because it's difficult to say "you asking me to respect your boundaries makes you difficult to talk to".
personally, i almost never post images to any discord now, i NEVER share dragons or look at dragon share, and i'm guilty of contributing to the atmosphere that the no-spoiler channels are the place to be because they feel like the only place i'm free of the anxiety of failing to spoil.
further thoughts:
i think it's fair to say that, in general, people don't fully understand triggers. even if they understand the consequences of triggering something in a particular person, they probably don't understand the mechanisms behind those consequences, or the exact nature of the content they need to warn for/avoid. often the people with these triggers don't fully understand this stuff.
this incomplete understand can at once cause anxiety over failing to comply with other's triggers, and either an unwillingness to fully enforce your own, or an overzealous attitude to enforcing your own triggers.
some examples of my own thoughts processes on these points:
failure to comply: "should i spoiler this? it technically counts. it's not that bad. is it? it's not my place to judge. they said spoiler butterflies. this is a photo of a person with a cartoon butterfly on their shirt. that's a butterfly. i'll spoiler it."
in reality, the trigger only relates to butterflies in motion (so a still image will rarely cause issues anyway) and is rarely ever affected by simplified, cartoonish butterflies. the cartoon butterfly shirt was a complete non-issue, and spoiling the photo only with the warning of "cw butterfly" only muddied the waters for the person with the butterfly phobia.
in fact, they clicked the spoiler because they had experience with people excessively warning for anything relating to butterflies, even though they explicitly specified it's only videos and gifs, and only real or realistic butterflies when requesting an addition to the list. but only "butterflies" got added to the discord's trigger list. someone in that server used to have the butterfly emoji in their discord username (not nick, their account username) and removed it because of this supposed butterfly trigger even though the emoji had zero chance of triggering this person at all.
and at the same time, it can be difficult to properly enforce your own need for spoilers or warnings, especially if the thing you need spoiled/warned for is "silly" (pretty much anything that isn't directly related to gore, sex, or death). that person i mentioned with the butterfly phobia was terrified to ask they be added to the list, and suffered in silence for months because, in more mainstream spaces, basically no-one respected thier basic request to not be tagged in or deliberately shown videos containing butterflies. in fact, when they brought it up, they got flooded with mentions/dms of butterfly vids and had to basically quit social media. and that is apparently nothing compared to what they've had to deal with irl on the subject.
(frozen comment) Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
Re: 2A I did not mean to imply that people who are triggered are in the same category as people who just find an image icky. I meant more like, say someone doesn't like to see pictures of XYZ gross thing because they think it's gross, but they aren't triggered by it nor do they have any other particular mental health issues regarding it. I do not think pictures should be spoiled for that person if it puts a burden on people with memory issues, and I do think at least a few of the people requesting spoilering fall into that category because they are over-pathologizing their feelings of disgust/discomfort.
Your point about boundaries vs. experiences is really thoughtful and I've never heard it put that way before. I feel like people often forget that people are, generally speaking, allowed to not have to deal with boundaries. For example, if someone says "I have X boundary" and someone else says "that isn't the kind of boundary I want in a friendship" they are then free to not be friends with that person and that is actually okay, because it is the purpose of boundaries, and it doesn't automatically mean they're a bad person because they don't want to have to deal with the boundary.
However, because of the way people usually talk about boundaries (often in the context of dealing with their mental health or navigating a problematic relationship), there is an assumption that boundaries are always a good thing that must be respected AND that if you have a problem with them, YOU are the problem. I think that carries over into this discussion, and like you said, it makes it difficult to be the person who can't or doesn't want to deal with a boundary, and if the reason is because of something you can't change, like your own memory issues, it can lead to internalizing the feeling that you're a bad person or a problem somehow.
As one of the people who brought up having two channels as a solution (that is in fact currently working well for Nature Flight discord), I want to shed some additional light on why I think that second channel has not fallen into the trap you describe:
(1) The list of server-wide triggers is fairly brief and fairly specific to just certain genes and eye types.
(2) The culture around the two channels (and their respective descriptions) makes it very clear that the channel with spoiler requirements should be treated as the default, with the other channel exclusively meant for dragons that could not be posted at all otherwise.
I think (1) is probably the harder, more subjective standard to maintain, and a lot of it comes down to what kind of server culture you're looking to cultivate. An independent FR-themed server will likely have more of an atmosphere of members getting to know each other as people and perhaps even as true friends; in such a context, talking about lots of non-FR topics is expected, and a wider scope for trigger lists is appropriate. For "official" flight discords, though, far fewer "off-topic" (read: non-FR) channels are going to be a thing, making it way more feasible to maintain a trigger list that is comparatively brief and unambiguous.
…Also, it sounds to me like, if one is going to maintain a server where a broader scope of topics (and potential triggers) is discussed, it would be genuinely helpful to go all-in in detail there! That is: (using your example) outright listing the trigger as "moving images of real life butterflies (still images and illustrations are completely fine)." The list is already something people are expected to not be able to memorize, after all; the extra level of detail can only help.
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Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 03:36 pm (UTC)(link)1. Some people with memory issues have a tough time remembering what to spoiler. For people on mobile or with poor eyesight or various other issues, even constantly consulting a list can be taxing and some just don't bother posting dragon images.
2. Are most people who want spoilering actually triggered by images, or do they just think it's icky and they don't want to see it? Alternately, are people with "memory issues" actually burdened by spoiler lists, or could some of them put in more effort? Where is the line between being actually triggered and just experiencing discomfort?
3. How are people who require spoilering able to play FR at all? Does it make sense to require spoilering of game content in a Discord for the game?
4. Are there potential solutions beyond "just join a different Discord?" Most Discords, including all the major flight Discords, IIRC, seem to require some degree of spoilering, so "just join a different Discord" isn't really a solution and would just end up shutting people out of
5. When it comes to memory issues versus needing things spoilered, why is the latter regarded as taking precedence? Why is it the "winning" disability when it comes to deciding who to accomodate? (Bad phrasing, sorry, hopefully you get what I mean.)
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My personal theory on point 5 is that trigger tagging carries more moral weight because it's under the same umbrella of tagging for very serious things, like mental health/sexual violence/etc. content warnings. So it carries some maybe unearned moral weight because it is associated with that, and the norm in online communities such as these is to spoiler/tag/TW other things already so people assume that adding to the list of things needing tagging is normal and appropriate.
I'd be interested to hear everyone else's thoughts!
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 03:53 pm (UTC)(link)As someone with sensory processing disorder, my sympathy goes out to people with actual visual sensitivities, and I understand content that is generally triggering to things like epilepsy deserves spoilers (so the flashing, strobing variety), but I just don't see that happening in FR genes too often. Maybe jaguar/rosette at most, but I'm not sure if that kind of content genuinely requires a spoiler.
And for the people who are afraid of gene art (not talking about accents) because they are too 'adult' or 'triggering' in ways other than a sensory issue (literally heard of people demanding spoilers for the ghost gene)....you are on a 13+ dragon site. This is not a game for young children (and I'm pretty sure the G-rated real world is going to have some skeletons, especially during Halloween).
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 08:58 pm (UTC)(link)not to say those discords with long trigger lists can't exist, but i feel very bad for anyone in there being guilted into the mindset that they did something horribly wrong for posting a dragon someone else just didn't like... especially those cases where players mini-mod and say "yeah it's not on the triggers list but it might bother someone, you should spoiler it"
exhausting bullshit
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 04:22 pm (UTC)(link)Just because something is easy for you doesn't mean it's easy for everyone.
And it is very very disheartening to consistently be the person who "looses" in a case of competing needs :/
(frozen comment) Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 04:27 pm (UTC)(link)Ignoring eye sight issues, which I've almost never seen cited, if you are not able to remember and unwilling to check a list with clearly stated rules? That's just being lazy. If you can't be assed to check, don't post dragon images.
One player's shit memory and unwillingness to take the time to check doesn't trump other users being able to be comfortable. We can take the time to check a list.
By the "I don't want to check what's acceptable" logic, someone could use that to say I can't remember what people consider serious outside dragon game stuff and freely post those serious things you mentioned because they aren't impacted by them personally. I have seen users say that before.
As for the join another Discord option, I'm in a smaller scale invite only FR community that has no spoiler requirements. If enough people hate spoilering, make your own server. Mind, I question how good the community of a "fuck your image sensitivities and phonias, I want to post what I want" would end up.
As for how can a user easily triggered play? You can always block images, manually allowing safe ones. It's easy enough to check a gene list on site before viewing a dragon picture if you block by default.
(frozen comment) Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 05:31 pm (UTC)(link)(frozen comment) Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-17 18:33 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) The previous anon
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-17 21:00 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) AYRT
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 04:31 pm (UTC)(link)This is literally just a dragon game man, it ain't that deep. Nobody is forced to continue playing a game or participate in a Discord server that causes them issues.
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 04:49 pm (UTC)(link)There are way to limit exposure to things that make you uncomfortable on site. These rules are set by communities to allow everyone to be able to interact on Discords.
I will never understand why people think following rules is such a big deal. It's just like the multiaccounting shitfest. "What do you mean I'm expected to follow rules I agreed to follow?"
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 04:56 pm (UTC)(link)In a server with 500 or 1000 people, compiling a list of specific personal triggers from members is impractical, and usually you get a compromise where mods will include a short, general list of common triggers, plus a few relevant to the topic of the discord. I've seen servers that try to accommodate everyone's personal trigger by using a big pinned list, and while this might actually work for groups of middling sizes where the majority of people happen to be used to constantly checking a list before posting, it quickly becomes unwieldy and a source of chaos and constant drama in servers that rapidly gain new members.
When it comes to requesting that specific genes be spoilered... I don't doubt that this request might well be coming from someone that doesn't really have a phobia or trauma around the gene, and just doesn't want to put up with the mild discomfort of seeing it, but it's going to be awkward and difficult as a mod to make that call on a case by case basis. Sometimes people honestly just have niche phobias. Deciding what does and doesn't get put on the list of requested censored topics is always going to be compromise, and imo should have more to do with the balance of functional practicality within the size of the server rather than scrutinizing the individual request to deem if a topic is a "valid" trigger or not. (Though in some specific cases it might be worth scrutinizing.)
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 05:12 pm (UTC)(link)But I've joined large a Discord before that had a very detailed trigger list - literal pages of scrolling, even on desktop. I basically took one look at that and was immediately overwhelmed. I don't think I ever posted anything in that Discord. The thought of having to cross-check everything against that list was too daunting.
I think it comes from a good place. People want to be accommodating. But there's a certain threshold where, in trying to accommodate everyone's triggers, they may not realize they're excluding other people with different sorts of needs.
And it's hurtful to be told that your needs aren't real needs, that you're just lazy and selfish and a bad person, and if you really cared you'd just try harder.
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 05:25 pm (UTC)(link)There aren't any genes that bother me in particular, but I also don't mind taking the time to add spoiler tags to images if I know that they might make other people uncomfortable. I figure that if specific eye types bother me, then it's not unreasonable to assume that some gene types do actually trigger some people. I do believe that everyone needs to kind of curate their own online experience, but I also don't think taking a few seconds out of your day to make other people comfortable, even if you don't really get it, is that much to ask.
All we can do is attempt to accommodate people in a reasonable way. It feels like having the list readily available is an accommodation in itself. Devices, mobile phones, and discord have font settings that increase the size for people with vision issues. (I have both memory issues and problems with reading small text.) It's not perfect by any means, but I don't feel like any specific disability is "winning".
+1
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 07:04 pm (UTC)(link)As long as a server has a clear, concise list easily referred to (ideally just make a bulleted list in a rules channel, or hell if you wanna really please 'both sides,' an entire "spoilered content" list channel just for that), I don't see how it's so unreasonable to take 30 seconds to give it a quick scroll when you want to post a dragon -- even if you're physically incapable of remembering a single item on the list for more than 30 seconds at a time, you can still just double check whether the eyes/genes line up.
Re: +1
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 07:20 pm (UTC)(link)I mean, I do feel like I am "losing" when I'm told that my needs can't be met because someone else's take precedence, or when they're dismissed entirely because "it's not that hard to spoiler, suck it up and get over it." One idea I saw was that there could be two channels, or a non-spoiler thread in a dragon share channel. Even if a solution that meets both needs can't be found, some acknowledgement that my issues are, for one thing, not completely made up or trivial would be nice!
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
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(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 05:28 pm (UTC)(link)I have ideas for what Discord's development team needs to implement to lighten the individual responsibility for spoilering content. I will list them if it's relevant to the conversation here.
I disagree with your 'moral weight' comment btw; individual people shouldn't have to weigh whether something is unpleasant enough for them to not have to interact with it. Maybe what you mean is that censoring niche/SFW triggers and phobias for everyone encumbers people who don't need those warnings.
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 07:42 pm (UTC)(link)It sucks to be on both sides of this issue, but having easily-accessible, clear and concise lists is just the best solution/compromise for both. Having nothing spoilered sucks on one end, and having long-ass lists with way more information than necessary that are cumbersome to browse sucks for people with memory issues. I encourage discords to have a list of what needs to be spoilered, and to keep it as minimal in format as possible.
I think my personal best way to do it would be to have a channel right below the rules channel called like "spoilered fr content" and have it have a clear, concise list. Something like, for example:
"Please spoiler the following content on dragons when posted in this discord:
- Shadow/Plague Primal
- Multigaze
- Jaguar/Rosette
- Gembond"
(Idk what other new genes/other stuff may be triggering to people, I was just listing the three things I've seen mentioned most as well as something vaguely similar to make the list slightly longer in size.)
Something clear and concise like that is a fair compromise where it's very accessible to check if you have memory problems (no one is saying anyone has to remember anything, and as long as the list is clear and concise, it shouldn't be an issue to check your dragon you want to post), but also accommodates for the most common triggers.
Ultimately, it comes down to communicating one's needs. If a person has memory problems and the list format of the discords they're in is written weirdly, hard to find, or has way more information than needed which makes it a longer read and they've forgotten the beginning by the time they get to the end (trust me, been there, done that...), then they should poke at a member of the mod team and ask them if it can be formatted differently to make it easier on them. Chances are, as long as they're polite and considerate about it and express what they need, the mods will be willing to work with them on finding a middle ground that also works for the memory issues.
If they're not willing to consult a list *at all* ever even when formatted clearly and cleanly, yeah, no, that's just being insensitive and selfish. (I do genuinely try to take most users who claim a disability at face value and work with them to try and find solutions, but sometimes you do run into someone who's very clearly just trying to not bother with common courtesy and play their way and only their way with getting exceptions baked into rules for their royal ass.)
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As a side note to you on your personal theory -- I'm assuming you have no problems with content on the site, but for me personally, shadow/plague primal make me physically ill to see. Like literally physically ill. I'm not going into the details on this post directly to avoid making other people uncomfortable, but if you really need to know, you can check https://pastebin.com/HUAkggsn which explains the symptoms I personally experience. Something doesn't have to be related to RL traumatic events to still provoke a visceral, physical reaction in someone, and I wouldn't considered it "unearned moral weight" to want to not be made ill just because I'm in a community discord.
Also, as a note to your point 3 -- I haven't gone to Dragon Share since the release of primal eyes. I don't really actively play much anymore in general, but when I did, it was easy enough to avoid the primal eyes because the main things I did were economy related. I'd see dragons in the coli when buying fodder or when raffle attending, but if I knew I was going to be doing an activity like that where I would see random dragons that may have Primal, I'd just set the site to 70% zoom and between that and the smaller previews in the AH and PAs, it was extremely easy to just miss the primal eyes and not see them if they ever existed. (I did also have a note on my attendant cell to "pls don't send me shadow/plague primal," but I took my own steps to mitigate it on my end as well.) I don't know whether that would help with the trypophobia genes that are on much larger sections of dragons, but at least for something like primal eyes, it was very doable. I did unfortunately have to leave a few community discord servers that weren't willing to accommodate on the primal eyes, but ultimately, most of them ended up understanding and being willing to work with people who communicated their needs.
Also, generally, it does make sense to request spoilering in a discord server because generally, a user cannot prevent discord from loading images themselves (adblock) or change the size at which the image is displayed (zoom level on a browser). The most common workarounds that work on the site itself on the user's end just don't work in community discords, so the only option left really as a bandaid fix is to just have the "spoiler it if you're gonna post it" option.
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 08:28 pm (UTC)(link)Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-17 11:02 pm (UTC)(link)I think people (not unjustifiably) frustrated by unwieldy long lists of dragon share spoiler requirements sometimes fall into a bit of a Dragon Triggers Georg fallacy, with the whole "well if you need all this censored, how are you even playing the game!?" thing. The reality is that most people with these visual triggers have Just One Thing that messes with them, and which they probably have solutions to manage on their own in the game itself. It's simply a matter of what happens when a server has a large population and you get a list that accounts for many different individual "Just One Thing" needs. And there's not a moral component to it working out like that; it's just how it goes.
(Personally, I am fond of the solution that I know at minimum Fire and Nature use, which is two different Dragon Share channels, with and without spoiler rules.)
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-18 12:07 am (UTC)(link)Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-25 18:57 (UTC) - ExpandRe: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-18 03:57 am (UTC)(link)They see a huge list of things that need to be tagged and start getting into the mindset of every person who wants something tagged wants ALL those things tagged.
I don't use discord, but I do have things I don't want to see on FR.
The top of the list is spiders. Period. I have to deal with spiders in real life occasionally, so when I am doing my 'relaxing' by playing games, I do not want to have to deal with them there. But, I can use adblock to block spider images on FR, but since I don't use discord, I don't know whether I would be able to do it there, and even then it could come down to having to basically adblock every single spider image, since it works off of url, and if the url is unique, it doesn't matter whether it is the same exact image.
Next is keel. I do not like plague primal or shadow primal or multigaze, but I don't have any physical reactions to them, just a bit of disgust and desire to look away. Keel on the other hand makes my skin crawl. Like there are things on me. I eventually realized that Keel reminds me of ticks. Fortunately for me, keel is not a well liked gene and even with the reaction to keel, I can actually take it in some cases (like chocolate chip cookie, or 'baking' dragons)
Last for my personal issues are plague/shadow primal and multigaze, but again those are generally fairly easy to avoid and/or scroll/click away from when encountered.
I definitely feel that FR needs the ability to censor images for people who have that 'just one thing' they dislike and want to avoid. I know it would be a ton of work, but I do feel the pay off would be worth it.
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-18 04:37 pm (UTC)(link)it's frustrating, and there's no easy solution that works for everyone.
i've been in discords that have long lists of things to spoiler, including genes/eyes. i've moderated some of those discords.
while i will be using general terms, dragons are a big part of that.
so to discuss these particular points from my own experience:
1. yeah, i have memory issues, and browsing the long lists can be taxing. it sucks. i also have overwhelming anxiety related to my inability to retain information. before posting an image that i feel is "borderline" or might need tagging i will repeatedly re-read the list and look at the image and upload the image but not hit enter and re-read the tag list again. sometimes for wayyy too long. sometimes i just give up and don't post the image because i realise that i don't care THAT MUCH about sharing it that it's worth all that anxiety. this is definitely worse in discords i moderate because i feel breaking a rule (or a generally-agreed upon social convention that isn't technically officially a rule) while being a moderator is a much worse infraction than doing so otherwise.
2a. "Are most people who want spoilering actually triggered by images, or do they just think it's icky and they don't want to see it?"
that's a question i ask myself sometimes, about both other's triggers and my own. when i find myself thinking about this, i realise that i've internalised a sentiment that is at best dismissive of others and lacking in empathy, and at worst actively ableist and harmful to myself and others.
there are certain things in images that make me feel physically dirty, and i need to shower to make it go away. how strong and distressing this dirty feeling is and whether i can resist the urge to shower varies for a lot of reasons that no-one, not even i, can fully account for at any given time.
this overwhelming feeling of dirtyness often starts out with a pretty vague "icky" feeling. if i manage things right, sometimes, i can keep it to that level and not let it get so bad that i need to shower.
i'm going to repeat something i said to my therapist recently: for me, triggers are like radiation. a small exposure now and then probably isn't going to cause any noticable harm. but repeated small exposures add up to enormous problems, even though no individual exposure is a big deal on its own.
so, yeah, seeing triggering content probably isn't going to cause a full-on meltdown every time, and might in fact only bring about an icky feeling in the triggered person. but that doesn't necessarily mean exposure to the content didn't harm them.
2b. "Alternately, are people with "memory issues" actually burdened by spoiler lists, or could some of them put in more effort?"
i mean......yes to both? at least for me. sometimes i definitely just don't bother posting an image because i don't want to have to check the spoiler list. it's one relatively minor inconvenience that i just don't want to deal with at that moment, so i don't deal with the inconvenience by not sharing the content which might warrant a warning, especially if i'm in a server with a particularly lengthy trigger list.
but i've also posted unwarned content that should have been warned for out of sheer forgetfulness. an important part of fighting my anxiety is not constantly checking things. having to check a list of things to warn for is a really big problem for mee (see 1), so sometimes i don't check. i just post things with the (entirely fake) confidence that it'll be fine. and 99% of the time it is but there have been a couple of incidents of me Fucking Up™ and not spoilering something that should definitely have been spoiled. this significantly worsened my anxiety about this!
3. see 2a above for "triggers are like radiation". in-game, it's usually easier to avoid triggering images than it is on a discord. unless you're browsing the dragon share forums (which i don't recommend if specifics about dragon art can cause you harm), pretty much the only time you're going to see full-size dragon art is after clicking on a much smaller icon of that dragon. the AH and lair avatars are small enough to conceal details that could be distressing, but not so small that you don't have at least a vague idea of what that dragon looks like. and, more to the point, the tooltips explicitly tell you about their genes and eye type. if you have any doubt about whether a dragon is safe to look at, that tooltip will let you know!
also it's possible to block scry images that contain genes/eyes you want to avoid because of how scry urls work. just add the string that corresponds to the thing you're avoiding to the following filter for your adblocker:
img[src*="/dgen/preview/dragon"][src*="bodygene=19"]
the above blocks jaguar on modern breeds. this only works for scries, but if like me you buy a lot of first gens, blocking scries in bios is very helpful.
4. nevermind the big flight discords, i'm in small friend discords that maintain trigger lists. it's really difficult to find a discord that doesn't. they're definitely getting more common, not just for flight rising but in general.
the presence of trigger lists changes the whole atmosphere and social functioning of a discord in more ways than just "social pressure to warn/fear of shaming" and "avoidance of spaces that have trigger lists".
just going by what i've observed both myself and others doing, if a discord usually requires warnings/spoilers for the "main" channels, but has one or more channels where those rules don't apply...the no-spoiler channels start getting milder and milder, with more and more content being posted to them and discussion of that content, and then the no-spoiler channel becomes a main channel and at some point the mods are likely to decide to add it to the list of channels requiring spoilers.
and even if it doesn't reach that inevitable conclusion of becoming a spoiled channel, the other issues persist and only get worse.
it's my experience that not only are most people willing (if not happy) to respect requests for trigger warnings and spoilers, they are WAY TOO EAGER about it, to the point that their eagerness and lack of nuance just causes problems.
they mean well. most of these people themselves have triggers (or did in the past) and thus want to make sure they're not exposing someone to something they don't want to be exposed to. but this overzealous use of warnings for the mildest of content renders the warning less useful for the people who need it.
if a discord has a no-spoil channel, people anxious about falling afoul of rules they don't fully understand, or failing to warn for triggers they don't fully understand, will use it for anything they're not 100% confident is safe to post. which, given that the list of possible triggers is almost infinite, can be anything, especially if the discord's trigger list is particularly long or vague.
in one discord, i used to avoid the no-spoil channel because it frequently contained the kind of stuff i definitely didn't want to see. but over time, people lost confidence in their ability to judge whether something was okay, or due to participation in other discords actively felt it might not be safe. so they started posting stuff that really didn't need to be there in the no-spoil channel because it's the only channel where you can't get in trouble for not spoiling.
unfortunately, some things i really enjoy seeing and talking about are pretty common triggers. so, even though there was not and never has been a need to warn for/spoil those things in that discord, they started appearing in the no-spoil channel. soon enough, they were gone from other channels and existed exclusively in no-spoil. that server's no-spoil channel is now effectively #thing-i-like-discussion.
occasionally, it also sees use as an actual no-spoil channel and stuff i REALLY cannot handle seeing gets posted in there. it's infrequently enough that it catches me by surprise every time. i can't complain about seeing it because it is being posted in the channel where it absolutely belongs. i feel it's not my place to complain about the channel becoming #thing-i-like-discussion because that's become the norm there, even though i've been there long enough to remember when it wasn't, and i'd be questioning an established social norm that everyone else seems comfortable with. i'd likely also bring the very existence of the no-spoil channel into question, since it was originally created just to accommodate my triggers.
i experience similar issues (thing i like being posted in no-spoil channels alongside my actual triggers) in other discords, but it's definitely a bigger deal to me that it happens in this one because of the slow evolution over time and because i feel i'm the only one with a problem with it.
so i really don't think no-spoil channels are the solution people want it to be - and believe me, i wanted it to be the solution too.
personally, i think a technical solution would help.
if you've ever submitted anything to a tumblr blog, you've probably had to click - or at least seen - the tag checkboxes blogs can provide for submissions. those are excellent for this kind of problem, and i think they are PARTLY - definitely not entirely - a solution to this problem.
at the very least, a checkbox system would remove the anxiety of "did i forget something" and lessen the burden on those of us with memory issues. when uploading an image, all you have to do is read each checkbox in turn and decide whether or not the image you're uploading might qualify for it.
there would still be issues with over-warning and warning for unnecessary things, perhaps moreso than there is now, but i think it would help.
of course, the only way to get these checkboxes on discord is if discord as a company decides to add them, and i don't see that happening any time soon so i'm aware this isn't a real solution. but it is all i can think of right now.
5. i can actually answer this! perhaps because i'm unlucky enough to suffer from both.
violating a boundary is an act, and having a poor memory is an experience.
let's assume pomegranites are on the discord's spoil-and-warn list
i post a picture of my pomegranite breakfast. i don't spoil the image, i don't mention that there are pomegranites.
i've made an act here: posting the picture. this act has a consequence: someone who is triggered by pomegranites saw one.
i have committed a boundary violation.
the boundary - tag your pomegranites - was clearly expressed. the list of items to tag is publicly and freely visible at all times, and i can easily check it at my convenience as often as i need to.
in a straightforward, logical way, i had good reason to know about this boundary, and the person who expressed it had good reason to expect their boundary be respected.
but my memory is bad. i forgot the boundary existed. i thought the boundary existed in some other space, with some other person. i checked the list of boundaries, 5 minutes ago, and i don't remember seeing anything that would stop me discussing what i had for breakfast today.
my failure to remember the boundary doesn't change the fact that i violated it. i still commited an act, and that act caused harm. i can't un-do the harm by remembering the boundary too late.
my bad memory is a constant thing. it's a thing i know about. it's in my discord bio, so everyone who reads that knows about it too. it's very clearly a fact of my existence.
as such, it's a fact of my existence i'm expected to be aware of and account for. if i know i have a bad memory, why didn't i check the list of triggers before posting? i did, but BECAUSE i have a bad memory, i fucking forgot pomegranites were on that list in the 2 minutes it took me to upload the picture.
how many times am i expected to check? how often?
what of the fact that constantly checking the list of triggers actively harms me, because it triggers my anxiety? did i check it? recently? what if i'm remembering checking it yesterday, or the day before? even if i did check it a few minutes ago, what if it's changed since then? what if something new was added? what if i just didn't notice the pomegranites? my reading comprehension isn't great. i should check again.
it's a very, very frustrating experience i think for everyone on either side of it.
if your clearly-expressed boundaries are violated, that harms you and it's reasonable to express your frustrations with that.
if you struggle to remember people's boundaries, that can cause a lot of anxiety over respecting them correctly in the moment. this is much harder to talk about, because it's difficult to say "you asking me to respect your boundaries makes you difficult to talk to".
personally, i almost never post images to any discord now, i NEVER share dragons or look at dragon share, and i'm guilty of contributing to the atmosphere that the no-spoiler channels are the place to be because they feel like the only place i'm free of the anxiety of failing to spoil.
further thoughts:
i think it's fair to say that, in general, people don't fully understand triggers. even if they understand the consequences of triggering something in a particular person, they probably don't understand the mechanisms behind those consequences, or the exact nature of the content they need to warn for/avoid. often the people with these triggers don't fully understand this stuff.
this incomplete understand can at once cause anxiety over failing to comply with other's triggers, and either an unwillingness to fully enforce your own, or an overzealous attitude to enforcing your own triggers.
some examples of my own thoughts processes on these points:
failure to comply: "should i spoiler this? it technically counts. it's not that bad. is it? it's not my place to judge. they said spoiler butterflies. this is a photo of a person with a cartoon butterfly on their shirt. that's a butterfly. i'll spoiler it."
in reality, the trigger only relates to butterflies in motion (so a still image will rarely cause issues anyway) and is rarely ever affected by simplified, cartoonish butterflies. the cartoon butterfly shirt was a complete non-issue, and spoiling the photo only with the warning of "cw butterfly" only muddied the waters for the person with the butterfly phobia.
in fact, they clicked the spoiler because they had experience with people excessively warning for anything relating to butterflies, even though they explicitly specified it's only videos and gifs, and only real or realistic butterflies when requesting an addition to the list. but only "butterflies" got added to the discord's trigger list. someone in that server used to have the butterfly emoji in their discord username (not nick, their account username) and removed it because of this supposed butterfly trigger even though the emoji had zero chance of triggering this person at all.
and at the same time, it can be difficult to properly enforce your own need for spoilers or warnings, especially if the thing you need spoiled/warned for is "silly" (pretty much anything that isn't directly related to gore, sex, or death). that person i mentioned with the butterfly phobia was terrified to ask they be added to the list, and suffered in silence for months because, in more mainstream spaces, basically no-one respected thier basic request to not be tagged in or deliberately shown videos containing butterflies. in fact, when they brought it up, they got flooded with mentions/dms of butterfly vids and had to basically quit social media. and that is apparently nothing compared to what they've had to deal with irl on the subject.
(frozen comment) Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-18 05:29 pm (UTC)(link)Re: 2A I did not mean to imply that people who are triggered are in the same category as people who just find an image icky. I meant more like, say someone doesn't like to see pictures of XYZ gross thing because they think it's gross, but they aren't triggered by it nor do they have any other particular mental health issues regarding it. I do not think pictures should be spoiled for that person if it puts a burden on people with memory issues, and I do think at least a few of the people requesting spoilering fall into that category because they are over-pathologizing their feelings of disgust/discomfort.
Your point about boundaries vs. experiences is really thoughtful and I've never heard it put that way before. I feel like people often forget that people are, generally speaking, allowed to not have to deal with boundaries. For example, if someone says "I have X boundary" and someone else says "that isn't the kind of boundary I want in a friendship" they are then free to not be friends with that person and that is actually okay, because it is the purpose of boundaries, and it doesn't automatically mean they're a bad person because they don't want to have to deal with the boundary.
However, because of the way people usually talk about boundaries (often in the context of dealing with their mental health or navigating a problematic relationship), there is an assumption that boundaries are always a good thing that must be respected AND that if you have a problem with them, YOU are the problem. I think that carries over into this discussion, and like you said, it makes it difficult to be the person who can't or doesn't want to deal with a boundary, and if the reason is because of something you can't change, like your own memory issues, it can lead to internalizing the feeling that you're a bad person or a problem somehow.
(frozen comment) Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-18 19:00 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-19 05:49 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-19 13:36 (UTC) - ExpandRe: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-18 06:30 pm (UTC)(link)(1) The list of server-wide triggers is fairly brief and fairly specific to just certain genes and eye types.
(2) The culture around the two channels (and their respective descriptions) makes it very clear that the channel with spoiler requirements should be treated as the default, with the other channel exclusively meant for dragons that could not be posted at all otherwise.
I think (1) is probably the harder, more subjective standard to maintain, and a lot of it comes down to what kind of server culture you're looking to cultivate. An independent FR-themed server will likely have more of an atmosphere of members getting to know each other as people and perhaps even as true friends; in such a context, talking about lots of non-FR topics is expected, and a wider scope for trigger lists is appropriate. For "official" flight discords, though, far fewer "off-topic" (read: non-FR) channels are going to be a thing, making it way more feasible to maintain a trigger list that is comparatively brief and unambiguous.
…Also, it sounds to me like, if one is going to maintain a server where a broader scope of topics (and potential triggers) is discussed, it would be genuinely helpful to go all-in in detail there! That is: (using your example) outright listing the trigger as "moving images of real life butterflies (still images and illustrations are completely fine)."
The list is already something people are expected to not be able to memorize, after all; the extra level of detail can only help.
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-19 06:02 (UTC) - ExpandRe: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-18 10:18 pm (UTC)(link)Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-19 02:47 (UTC) - ExpandRe: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-19 05:24 (UTC) - ExpandRe: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-19 13:27 (UTC) - ExpandRe: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-19 15:45 (UTC) - ExpandRe: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-19 16:39 (UTC) - ExpandRe: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) - 2023-04-19 06:47 (UTC) - Expand(frozen comment) Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
Picking and choosing who deserves accommodations and who doesn't ain't it.
Thanks for otherwise keeping this thread MOSTLY civil.
Re: Censoring genes/eye types on Discord
(Anonymous) 2023-04-22 04:01 am (UTC)(link)