@/Vendrus seems so kind and knowledgeable whenever i see them in a forum thread. @/Almedha though... saw someone once refer to them as an "annoying centrist" which made me LOL, because they just Can Not Stop Arguing ALWAYS... what a nut
So much this. Almedha is the kind of person who argues just to argue. They remind me of a friend that I used to have that would argue with people who agreed with them. It was wild. I halfway wonder if they argue in the suggestion forum as some bizarre form of tension release.
OP just... they just wanted to simply CONSOLIDATE information that is already THERE on the site into a simple, easy to reference format. That thread got WEIRD really fast, WOW.
Literally so strange that almost instantly people jumped to bitch about headcanons being ruined like... ??????? It doesn't stop other fandoms from making headcanons why would it stop this one.
i think certain opinions are built upon a strange imaginary ruleset where changing the pronouns used for a certain NPC would then "remove representation" somehow for niche identities. to be clear, i'm not talking about Fiona being transfemme, or insinuating that we shouldn't have trans NPCs. i'm talking about the weird discourse i've seen, like about the Wildclaw NPC - well, now i'm going insane because i can't find a wildclaw npc??? but i could've sworn i remembered a Wildlaw with like, glasses & a muffler, and people were arguing about if he was a demiboy or nonbinary or transmasc or whatever & getting angry on all sides bc like "if he's transmasc then how dare you they/them him" and "nooo he can't be transmasc we need nb representation" & my oldertrans anypronoun ass was over here like... staff clearly loves & appreciates their rainbow family userbase. they're showing not only a willingness but also Excitedness to include variety in their character designs, including gender, body size, skin color, visible disability, et alia. we are not going unnoticed here. and i use the phrase "niche identities" not because i want silent minorities, but because of the contemporary tendency to microlabel & focus on differences in a way that has lead to exclusionary infighting - just because staff has not specified that an NPC is ace or genderfluid or whatever doesn't mean that it can't be true to you! and it doesn't indicate a lack of care for those identities, either. only so many NPCs get introduced at once. give it time.
i'm all for including pronouns for NPCs along with their introductions. i think it's nice. users could root around staff posts searching for what pronouns were used in reference to which NPCs, but it would be easier to just have them listed for view somewhere more findable, next to NPC names & roles. ...though i do foresee perhaps an increased drama surrounding pronoun correction on the forums. like besties i PROMISE dropping the wrong pronoun for a dragon NPC doesn't automatically make someone a virulent transphobe & everyone is probably trying their best (and if they actually are transphobic, well, i'm sure they'll give you more evidence than just dropping an incorrect pronoun or two into a regular discussion)
There are a lot of 'woke' cis girls on FR who obsess over trans people and their lives to an unhealthy and objectifying degree, who also obsess over attempting to clock NPC's to an disturbing degree. The same thing happened with that aquarius familiar, where to many users were calling the character nonbinary or genderfluid based on physical traits and anatomy alone which was just...gross. Trans people have come so far to distance society from chaser behavior like that. And I'm well aware of their obsession over Avery for not looking 'cis' enough to them in dress or physicality or whatever aspect they fixate on. The fact that you get this group of people going to war with others over pronoun correction, over genders they /made up/ for these NPC's, is not only embarrassing but also harmful toward trans visibility. It makes acknowledging /actual/ trans lives appear as a game to play for woke points for these people, and does not make a good impression for allies. This behavior is not, in any way, genuine activism, and it makes fun of people who are actually trying to advance trans rights and recognition in a respectful way.
I will mention though that Fiona is a girl. Transfemme should not be used in place of woman if the character is binary trans. I've read many opinions from trans women who think that term reduces their legitimacy when they are separated from cis women in language.
AYRT - i see your point fair enough on the terminology re: Fiona, and appreciate your input, so thank you, genuinely. though i will note that no group is a monolith, different people will have preference for different terms, and if i am reading your last sentence correctly, you are quoting opinions you've read from others regarding how they feel about the language that is applied to them as humans (not fantasy dragon characters), rather than coming from a place of personal experience - although of course not sharing a certain identity doesn't preclude you from participating in discussions, and i'm not trying to de-legitimize your viewpoint in that way.
words & identities are a very personal thing, and always sliding around in meaning as language evolves. my partner is a binary trans woman and doesn't really fuss about the "woman/trans woman/transfemme/trans fem/MtF" distinctions in cases of Fiction (though obviously there Are distinctions, and through context clues you can conclude when someone has chosen a certain term pointedly to cause harm), but again, both my partner & i fit into the "older FR player" category, and that definitely informs our views on the terminology.
trans women are women. you can dress or present "femme" without being a woman. & i definitely would rather have someone on my side who ACTS in support of LGBTQ+ people but knows nothing other than outdated/offensive terminology, versus someone who knows the LINGO but uses it to couch their oppressive/conservative ideology in "acceptable-sounding" words.
i chose "transfemme" in this scenario because Fiona the character was designed to show the multi-set antennae trait in common with M pose Skydancers, but is also clearly feminine in name & social presentation, and i couldn't be fussed to look up exact terminology quoted on the website, which is kind of what the whole argument is about in the first place ahahaha. this time i went to look it up, and found just a post by Aequorin quoting a player question "I see some people say she's trans?" & replying simply "She is."
if i'm missing something more exact, by all means correct me with that information, but if all we're given is "she is trans" then that becomes a non-canon-negotiable trait of hers, but the exact identity comes down to player interpretation. also, she's not a real person, she's a dragon character who happens to have trans traits. which i think is the idea that staff is really trying to emphasize here, rather than ironing out super specific identities to ascribe to NPC dragon characters as some "representation checklist" to tick off. to paraphrase, "these are DRAGONS, existing as dragons. some might happen to be trans or disabled or (whatever else), but we strive to have those attributes arise & be recognized naturally, rather than adding these types of characteristics on purpose purely to satisfy microrepresentation requirements."
and just to be clear, i'm not trying to fight anyone here, my opinion is not the be-all end-all opinion, and i think nuanced discussions on topics like these are important. so thank you everyone for showing more level-headedness & maturity than some of our infamous FRD & suggestions forum regulars :P
The silliest part is that the site already has canonical pronouns for the NPCs - some are listed right on their shop/post description (like if you hover over the icon on the selection page), and some are just confirmed via staff posts - but they all are out there. The suggestion is just to have them displayed somewhere more clearly.
If someone wants to call Galore she/her because that's their headcanon, like whatever - but they're already going against established site lore, and that information being more prominent doesn't change that.
(Also, this is just a me thing and probably overthinking but - it's weird to me when people are super insistent and defensive about their headcanons being more important than canon lore, at least in cases of smaller projects like these where you have pretty much direct contact with the character's creators. Particularly given FR is making an effort to have diverse characters, so it's not like we're severely lacking representation. Like, it's fine to have fun and create headcanons about characters, but it doesn't trump the canon lore and your headcanons aren't more valid than it. I doubt staff cares or is bothered by it to be fair, but if I told someone my nonbinary dragon's pronouns were they/them and they said 'oh but I get such feminine energy from them, so I'm gonna headcanon that they use she/her' or something and tried arguing with me about my own character's pronouns or gender identity, I'd be like what the fuck and block that person lmao.)
The one person who was insistent on misgendering Galore and Pipp really rubbed me the wrong way. The "angry lesbian" comment alongside all their "happily bisexuals" too, but I can't tell if they were self-referring or calling one of their own characters that. Misgendering is gross and weird no matter who it's done towards, and lesbians can be happy too. Wtf is that person's deal?
Their "Just look at Galore/Pipp! They're clearly..." annoyed me, but I don't see anything wrong with genderbending (and/or trans) headcanons for cis characters. It's not the same as misgendering a real person. I mind when it starts to sound like gender essentialism ("I think this male character is a woman because he likes flowers/is nurturing/etc."), and in the same vein, you shouldn't gender- or cisbend(?) canonically trans characters. It's too close to what happens in real life.
Galore is an edge case, I think, because he is not not cis.
When asked what Galore identifies as, the response was "Galore is Galore" and "Galore is a dragon" and that his pronouns are He/Him.
But apparently his art is very feminine to some people so some folks have made up their own headcanons about him, and some folks got really weird about it. The one individual in the pronoun thread said something to the extent of 'Look at her! She's the single most feminine NPC on the site! She *HAS* to be a woman!'
The thread was locked before I saw it, but I really wanted to answer that one. THE most feminine presenting people I know, like outrageously, outspokenly, GLORIOUSLY femme - are all gay men, who identify as men, just femme ones. And I love them all for it. Though they can be as insistent as that poster on what "feminine" really is, which is upsetting for those of us who have been relentlessly mocked over the years for not being the socially-acceptable kind of girls and women :/
The absolute insistence from that poster that the NPCs are OBVIOUSLY this or that "just look at them!", even in contradiction of what the creators intended, was really, really annoying frankly.
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aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-18 06:14 am (UTC)(link)https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/sug/3265524
https://web.archive.org/web/20230818061129/https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/sug/3265524
dont even know what else to say about this. its all so goofy to me.
Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-18 06:54 am (UTC)(link)Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-18 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-18 05:00 pm (UTC)(link)Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-18 05:16 pm (UTC)(link)Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-18 05:46 pm (UTC)(link)Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-19 12:52 am (UTC)(link)to be clear, i'm not talking about Fiona being transfemme, or insinuating that we shouldn't have trans NPCs. i'm talking about the weird discourse i've seen, like about the Wildclaw NPC - well, now i'm going insane because i can't find a wildclaw npc??? but i could've sworn i remembered a Wildlaw with like, glasses & a muffler, and people were arguing about if he was a demiboy or nonbinary or transmasc or whatever & getting angry on all sides bc like "if he's transmasc then how dare you they/them him" and "nooo he can't be transmasc we need nb representation" & my oldertrans anypronoun ass was over here like... staff clearly loves & appreciates their rainbow family userbase. they're showing not only a willingness but also Excitedness to include variety in their character designs, including gender, body size, skin color, visible disability, et alia. we are not going unnoticed here. and i use the phrase "niche identities" not because i want silent minorities, but because of the contemporary tendency to microlabel & focus on differences in a way that has lead to exclusionary infighting - just because staff has not specified that an NPC is ace or genderfluid or whatever doesn't mean that it can't be true to you! and it doesn't indicate a lack of care for those identities, either. only so many NPCs get introduced at once. give it time.
i'm all for including pronouns for NPCs along with their introductions. i think it's nice. users could root around staff posts searching for what pronouns were used in reference to which NPCs, but it would be easier to just have them listed for view somewhere more findable, next to NPC names & roles.
...though i do foresee perhaps an increased drama surrounding pronoun correction on the forums. like besties i PROMISE dropping the wrong pronoun for a dragon NPC doesn't automatically make someone a virulent transphobe & everyone is probably trying their best (and if they actually are transphobic, well, i'm sure they'll give you more evidence than just dropping an incorrect pronoun or two into a regular discussion)
Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-19 01:19 am (UTC)(link)Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-19 05:58 pm (UTC)(link)Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-19 02:29 pm (UTC)(link)There are a lot of 'woke' cis girls on FR who obsess over trans people and their lives to an unhealthy and objectifying degree, who also obsess over attempting to clock NPC's to an disturbing degree. The same thing happened with that aquarius familiar, where to many users were calling the character nonbinary or genderfluid based on physical traits and anatomy alone which was just...gross. Trans people have come so far to distance society from chaser behavior like that. And I'm well aware of their obsession over Avery for not looking 'cis' enough to them in dress or physicality or whatever aspect they fixate on.
The fact that you get this group of people going to war with others over pronoun correction, over genders they /made up/ for these NPC's, is not only embarrassing but also harmful toward trans visibility. It makes acknowledging /actual/ trans lives appear as a game to play for woke points for these people, and does not make a good impression for allies. This behavior is not, in any way, genuine activism, and it makes fun of people who are actually trying to advance trans rights and recognition in a respectful way.
I will mention though that Fiona is a girl. Transfemme should not be used in place of woman if the character is binary trans. I've read many opinions from trans women who think that term reduces their legitimacy when they are separated from cis women in language.
Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-19 05:53 pm (UTC)(link)though i will note that no group is a monolith, different people will have preference for different terms, and if i am reading your last sentence correctly, you are quoting opinions you've read from others regarding how they feel about the language that is applied to them as humans (not fantasy dragon characters), rather than coming from a place of personal experience - although of course not sharing a certain identity doesn't preclude you from participating in discussions, and i'm not trying to de-legitimize your viewpoint in that way.
words & identities are a very personal thing, and always sliding around in meaning as language evolves. my partner is a binary trans woman and doesn't really fuss about the "woman/trans woman/transfemme/trans fem/MtF" distinctions in cases of Fiction (though obviously there Are distinctions, and through context clues you can conclude when someone has chosen a certain term pointedly to cause harm), but again, both my partner & i fit into the "older FR player" category, and that definitely informs our views on the terminology.
trans women are women. you can dress or present "femme" without being a woman. & i definitely would rather have someone on my side who ACTS in support of LGBTQ+ people but knows nothing other than outdated/offensive terminology, versus someone who knows the LINGO but uses it to couch their oppressive/conservative ideology in "acceptable-sounding" words.
i chose "transfemme" in this scenario because Fiona the character was designed to show the multi-set antennae trait in common with M pose Skydancers, but is also clearly feminine in name & social presentation, and i couldn't be fussed to look up exact terminology quoted on the website, which is kind of what the whole argument is about in the first place ahahaha. this time i went to look it up, and found just a post by Aequorin quoting a player question "I see some people say she's trans?" & replying simply "She is."
https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/frd/2812274/4#post_42031300
if i'm missing something more exact, by all means correct me with that information, but if all we're given is "she is trans" then that becomes a non-canon-negotiable trait of hers, but the exact identity comes down to player interpretation. also, she's not a real person, she's a dragon character who happens to have trans traits. which i think is the idea that staff is really trying to emphasize here, rather than ironing out super specific identities to ascribe to NPC dragon characters as some "representation checklist" to tick off. to paraphrase, "these are DRAGONS, existing as dragons. some might happen to be trans or disabled or (whatever else), but we strive to have those attributes arise & be recognized naturally, rather than adding these types of characteristics on purpose purely to satisfy microrepresentation requirements."
and just to be clear, i'm not trying to fight anyone here, my opinion is not the be-all end-all opinion, and i think nuanced discussions on topics like these are important. so thank you everyone for showing more level-headedness & maturity than some of our infamous FRD & suggestions forum regulars :P
Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-19 02:15 am (UTC)(link)If someone wants to call Galore she/her because that's their headcanon, like whatever - but they're already going against established site lore, and that information being more prominent doesn't change that.
(Also, this is just a me thing and probably overthinking but - it's weird to me when people are super insistent and defensive about their headcanons being more important than canon lore, at least in cases of smaller projects like these where you have pretty much direct contact with the character's creators. Particularly given FR is making an effort to have diverse characters, so it's not like we're severely lacking representation. Like, it's fine to have fun and create headcanons about characters, but it doesn't trump the canon lore and your headcanons aren't more valid than it. I doubt staff cares or is bothered by it to be fair, but if I told someone my nonbinary dragon's pronouns were they/them and they said 'oh but I get such feminine energy from them, so I'm gonna headcanon that they use she/her' or something and tried arguing with me about my own character's pronouns or gender identity, I'd be like what the fuck and block that person lmao.)
Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-19 06:25 pm (UTC)(link)Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-20 09:01 am (UTC)(link)Galore is an edge case, I think, because he is not not cis.
Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-20 02:18 pm (UTC)(link)Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-20 04:29 pm (UTC)(link)But apparently his art is very feminine to some people so some folks have made up their own headcanons about him, and some folks got really weird about it. The one individual in the pronoun thread said something to the extent of 'Look at her! She's the single most feminine NPC on the site! She *HAS* to be a woman!'
Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-20 06:22 pm (UTC)(link)Re: aaaaa pronouns so scary
(Anonymous) 2023-08-20 11:37 pm (UTC)(link)The absolute insistence from that poster that the NPCs are OBVIOUSLY this or that "just look at them!", even in contradiction of what the creators intended, was really, really annoying frankly.