Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-11 03:58 am (UTC)(link)
God no, I hate the current situation but I don't want to to back to people thinking that they are 4real Sans Skeleton kin and have "memories" from their past character life in an alternate dimension... The amount of bullying people tried to justify with this was insane. I saw one person in their 20s kinning invader zim, and calling various people abusive for "drawing him doing things he didn't consent to", such as... wearing a different wig and holding hands with Marvin the Martian.

I see some younger millennials and older gen z using kin as shorthand for 'I identity with x character', but the whole history of people using kinning as a bullying tactic and transphobia being a big reason for its more widespread use in 2014-2017 leaves a super gross taste in my mouth whenever I see it. The 'I am angel/sans/plant/wolf/ kin' bios in 2016 you could directly trace to people on 4chan and KF that were creating these accounts to be incredibly shitty about trans people, and it's still a thing they pull out on twitter from time to time. If you see an 'info' post about catkin going around on twt that's literally a thing created in a 4chan thread to fuck with y'all.

Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-11 04:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I'll be honest, I never saw the transphobic problems from KF and 4chan. But maybe I was lucky enough to get out before that started.

I mostly just saw issues where it was being used for idiotic fandom bullying.

"Don't talk to me if you rp or write about this character, because you're writing about me." Is not really a great argument when someone else made the character.

Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-11 05:21 pm (UTC)(link)
To be fair, tumblr during that period and earlier (say 2013-2014) was pretty bad in general. Remember those preachy holier-than-thou PSAs with danganronpa characters? Yeah. There were a LOT of 'my opinion is more valid than yours' bullying over liking/disliking a ship or problematic character etc. and kinning is just in the crossfire because people who do this shit happens to have kin bios and use it as an excuse.

I don't think kinning itself is the problem - it's just roleplaying in fancy packaging IMO. People just took things too far and happen to be associated with it. I don't know much about the 4chan stuff to really comment on that.

Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-19 08:50 pm (UTC)(link)
"The 'I am angel/sans/plant/wolf/ kin' bios in 2016 you could directly trace to people on 4chan and KF that were creating these accounts to be incredibly shitty about trans people, and it's still a thing they pull out on twitter from time to time. If you see an 'info' post about catkin going around on twt that's literally a thing created in a 4chan thread to fuck with y'all."

Probably a late response, but thank you for bringing this up! I tried talking about it in a (non-FR) server I was in a few days ago and people thought I was being mean or transphobic despite being trans myself. It made me uncomfortable, so I left. A lot of these animal/object kin identities have origins in 4chan trolling. IIRC the first incident was using "clovergender" as a way to sneak pedophilia and troll Tumblr and Twitter trans communities, and the other kin stuff followed suit.

Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-19 11:21 pm (UTC)(link)
It is true that there are instances of 4chan trolling via kin and making up genders but reading this thread I'm sort of scratching my head because kinning existed long before then and it feels a bit disingenuous to treat it as such. Like, from what I vaguely remember kinning has it's roots in people identifying as elves and then otherkin was coined to refer to non-elfkin. Kinning in reference to fictional characters is relatively new. I remember when the wider otherkin community considered it a bastardization of the culture (and maybe they still do but I wouldn't know, I dont go there anymore). IDK what the catkin thread is about but dear god people have seriously been thinking of themselves as kitty cats with 100% sincerity for decades now.

Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-19 11:39 pm (UTC)(link)
me too nonny. I definitely knew ppl who kinned fictional characters who were like... genuine and not from 4chan 😭

Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-20 01:26 am (UTC)(link)
Same. Honestly, I think 4chan and KF bastardized an odd form of expression used by people online because they realized that they could hurt multiple groups by doing it for laughs, and it lingers. Now, anyone that did it innocently is tied to 4chan and transphobia.

Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-20 01:30 am (UTC)(link)
NAYRT

I mean, are they though? I get how some people might have their perspective of kinning soured by those malicious instances but it's a bit of a stretch to say they're now tied to 4chan and transphobia.

Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-20 03:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Decades? Try millennia lol. The Egyptians have been doing therian/kin stuff to the point of making it a religion!

Humans are always gonna be That Way about animals, and honestly, I love it.

Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-20 06:54 am (UTC)(link)
Ayrt

Holy wall of text batman, I guess I have more data on this than I thought. Even with a lot of the screenshots I was looking for gone missing. :/

Sorry you experienced that nonny. I'm kind of boggled that people have somehow forgotten 4chan and KF's involvement in this, as it was pretty fucking common knowledge last I looked. Nonnies above had some valid questions about the origins of kinning and confusion over why a lot of people view it as transphobic, so I'll answer that here as well.

While there was definitely precedent for kinning before 4chan/KF began using the concept in a transphobic astroturfing campaign, it was originally a much more niche set of beliefs most often found in small communities that were often adjacent to the furry fandom. This is the Therian/Otherkin community I'm talking about here, their definition of 'otherkin' was and still is pretty different than the idea of 'kinning a fictional character'. A lot of the community was somewhat insular, and my understanding is that on the whole, members generally discouraged people from using those terms outside Therian/Otherkin community spaces.

"A lot of these animal/object kin identities have origins in 4chan trolling. IIRC the first incident was using "clovergender" as a way to sneak pedophilia and troll Tumblr and Twitter trans communities, and the other kin stuff followed suit."

Yep. This is one of the more well documented examples of KF farms doing active astroturfing to on tumblr that we have, though of course there were a hell of a lot more. I think more of the kin accounts and concepts created by these people were about painting transgender people as delusional and wanting to 'become animals/demons', than pedophiles, but there was eventually a push towards making accounts where the "user" was kin with various underage fictional characters and then would immediately use the account to solicit minors for SRP. BTW fuuuck imgur for deleting the screenshots someone had collected of this back in 2016, fuck you imgur.

Slight tangent, but there was a later version of this with the same "transphobic people are predatory" rhetoric that popped up somewhere between 2016-2020, where suddenly it was 'I'm mentally 16 but I'm actually 25...' Slightly different thing and similar situation to kin, where once the idea was out there via astroturfing, there were some more innocent fans on tumblr and twitter that just... thought the idea of saying you were mentally a minor in your 20s was appealing. (This is, uh much more problematic than identifying with Sans the Skeleton at 25, for obvious reasons. While I'm somewhat sympathetic with the idea of someone not feeling their age and thinking that are actually a minor at 25, I also have some really gross stories of people using this idea to justify having absolutely no boundaries with minors in discord. Anyways, back to kinning.)

I think the majority of the kinning astroturf campaign from 4chan turned into slightly less malicious but still transphobic trolling 'for the lolz', like plantkin, real person kin, ect, and by this time the idea had become somewhat popularized to the point where a lot of younger users adopted the idea wholesale.

Nonny above with this comment:
"Same. Honestly, I think 4chan and KF bastardized an odd form of expression used by people online because they realized that they could hurt multiple groups by doing it for laughs, and it lingers. Now, anyone that did it innocently is tied to 4chan and transphobia."

You are correct that 4chan and KF were interested in hurting multiple groups, including anyone they saw as furry/autistic/queer, but the kin astroturfing campaign used a lot of its rhetoric specifically to attack and delegitimize trans people. I think a lot of people just forgot that 4chan and KF's transphobic trolling is why and how this extremely niche concept was suddenly exploding on tumblr in 2014-15, and with a pretty different definition than the one the established Otherkin community had been using for over a decade.

There's a really decent lecture online from 2013 (note the date) that goes over the online culture and ideas of Otherkin/Therians. This video has a lot of in-depth documentation, empathy and curiosity, and I highly recommend it to anyone that's curious about the history of kinning/otherkin/therians:

https://youtu.be/ZMEkuOW5pjs?si=Nys4jln6lqea0S8d

If you don't feel like watching the video but want a quick look at how the Therian/Otherkin community in 2013 was discussing and thinking about these type of identities and beliefs, the comment section on this video is a pretty good window into that.

I wasn't in any of these communities but afaik this lecture is considered to be a well researched and accurate description of what the Therian and Otherkin communities were like in 2013, and the experiences of the people that were using these terms. From all my interactions with them and what I've read, (though of course the community is not a monolith, you're going to find some disagreement) on the whole they were and continue to be pretty fucking unhappy with the fact that 'Otherkin", and "Kinning" suddenly exploded to widespread use on tumblr as a result of transphobic astroturfing, and consider the casual use of 'kinning' to be an insulting bastardization of their own beliefs. (Take of that what you will.)

I've learned about this mostly from talking to people in the community, but there's also plenty of documentation about it, here's one example:

https://forums.therian-guide.com/Thread-Therian-Otherkin-Terms
Last updated 2018:

"Otherkin: A person that identifies as being, in part or whole (non-physically), one or more non-human creatures or beings on an integral and personal level. Otherkin cannot choose their kintypes. Otherkin is also an umbrella term for otherkin, therians and fictiokin."

"Coping Linkers: People who use non-human entities as a way to cope with depression, anxiety, and general day-to-day troubles. They are not considered the same as otherkin or therians despite vague similarities, as they have chosen their identities. The name was changed from copingkin to copinglinkers to cement that they are not associated with the otherkin community.

Theriotype: What a therian identifies as being on a spiritual and personal level. A therian may identify as one or more animals as their theriotype. E.g. a therian may have a wolf theriotype, meaning they identify as a wolf.

Kintype: What an otherkin identifies as E.g. Dragonkin means identifying as a dragon, wolfkin as a wolf.

Kin: Shortened form of Otherkin, not a verb. You can’t ā€˜kin’ something, and ā€˜kinning’ isn’t a thing. ā€œMy kin/theriotype is (x)ā€, or ā€œI am (x) kinā€ are correct ways of phrasing it. ā€œI otherkin across the streetā€ makes no sense."


Terms and ideas of course continue to evolve, and there are plenty of people that are either unaware of 4chan's extremely transphobic involvement in popularizing kinning fictional characters on tumblr, or just don't care. Which... honestly, like, fine? Ideas and language evolve, and if you're not using it to maliciously bully people or use it to try and convince other people that trans people are delusional, I guess I don't really think you're doing a great harm to anybody by using the term. It's just been a very, very recent tool of transphobic rhetoric, and the community that it came from less than 10 years ago is also extremely unhappy with people using it causally as a shorthand for having an extreme attachment to fictional characters such as Sans the Skeleton/ thinking you're Sans the Skeleton on the astral plane. (Take your pick.)

Nonny above with this comment:
I mean, are they though? I get how some people might have their perspective of kinning soured by those malicious instances but it's a bit of a stretch to say they're now tied to 4chan and transphobia.

Sorry, but even if you are unaware of the history behind it, saying that you're "kinning a fictional character" is absolutely, definitely tied and strongly associated with 4chan and transphobia, and that's what a lot of people will think of upon seeing it. I'm not equating this to someone putting "I'm kin with Sans the Skeleton" being actively transphobic, just that the recent history behind it absolutely is. It's... context.

Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-20 07:15 am (UTC)(link)
NA
i had no idea about any of this. this was a really interesting morning read tbh, and it kind of is a relief to see the "real" otherkin community's stance on it

Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-20 07:27 am (UTC)(link)
SA

Looking at the 2018 Therian forum post and spotting some conflicting things, which honestly I'm not all that surprised about, but probably worth mentioning.

"Fictionkin" is and continues to be a subject of pretty contentious debate afaik, but was used in and outside of the community enough for it to at least get an entry in this 2018 post by a member of a therian forum here:

"Fictionkin: A person that identifies as being, in part or whole (non-physically), one or more species and/or characters shown in media on an integral and personal level. Some fictionkin are character-specific, such as Sonic the Hedgehog, while others identify as a fictional species, like a non-specific Chao or a PokƩmon. Fictionkin cannot choose their kintypes.

Kinnie: Used derogatorily toward younger members of the Alterhuman community. Used on Tumblr as a synonym to Otherkin.

Tumblrkin: A person usually from Tumblr who has done no research on otherkinity, and claims to be kin just for the ā€˜aesthetic’, to jump on the bandwagon, or otherwise. They usually have kintype lists of 100+ and the term is used derogatorily.

Species Dysphoria: The experience of dysphoria (discomfort, depression, anxiety or similar based around one’s self) associated with the feeling that one's body is of the wrong species. Not all therians and otherkin experience this."
---------------------------

"User ArchieAce: Edited. Any more problems and I'd love to fix them! I don't experience these myself nor do astral spiritual work, but an aural shift is your aura changing form (unsure how that is done or detected), a spiritual shift is your astral body changing, e.g. on the astral plane, while a mental shift is thinking alike their species/whatever they are."


By this person's definition and what they've written on their guide, using the term fictionkin to describe thinking you're Sans the Skeleton on the astral plane would be accurate, and not necessarily offensive to them. I'm not 100% sure if this is because of cultural shift or if it was a subsection of this community that was originally more accepting of it.

I find it interesting to see the overt negative opinions they have of people using the term specifically on tumblr, and I have a feeling whoever made this guide wasn't as aware of the 4chan involvement. You can also get a glimpse of why 4chan picked this stuff as a tool for transphobic rhetoric in the first place, specifically with the entries that borrow terms such as dysphoria.

Re: Unpopular Opinion...

(Anonymous) 2023-08-20 07:25 pm (UTC)(link)
AYRT
Thank you! This was a very informative post. I will be checking out the Therianthropy video. It looks interesting, and it's nice to see someone outside of the group present the topic in a respectful manner.
Astroturfing (re: clovergender) was the word I was looking for to describe the specific behavior. Looking back at my previous post, I'm sorry if what I said earlier conflated transphobic trolling with being otherkin. These are two distinct concepts, but transphobes have appropriated otherkin ideas for nefarious purposes like what you described. They also use these terms to blend in and screenshot private servers they infiltrate for entertainment on KF.
It is a shame that the 2016 imgur album no longer exists, perhaps there is an archive on archive.org or another archival site?
IMO younger people should inform themselves on the history of clovergender, "Attack Helicopter" jokes, predators using "mental age" excuse to sexually harass others, and the new identity stuff that circulates on TikTok (I believe it is also astroturfing). Being informed about how bad faith actors operate and knowing how to avoid them is one way to keep yourself safe online. Maybe the specific terms people nowadays use for their identities are done with innocent intentions, but we can't ignore their history.