imo the very fact that your own definition of "very simple and easy to edit in place" apparel became increasingly expansive as you worked through your thoughts… demonstrates the core issue here.
even though lots of apparel is really simple (and I'd love stuff like auras and flowerfalls to help fill out the negative space around my ancients in a way skins/accents by definition can't!), the boundary between what is/isn't simple apparel turns out to be way blurrier than the boundary that is "no apparel, period"!
this is something that i think could conceivably be fun to revisit once every flight has an ancient, but along the way i'd much prefer that staff stick to their guns so that they can continue their current/chosen pace with releasing ancient breeds.
ALL THAT SAID, I have seen an iteration of this idea that proposes an entirely new category of (not-)apparel that is "foreground items," which stuff like flowerfalls would be categorized under and which would be allowed on ancients. a built-in division like that is something that i think could totally work long-term.
Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
DA, but I'm a big supporter of foreground items. They're one of the things I really hope we get someday. We have a ton of apparel that are basically just copypasted (like flower falls, auras, etc.) that could easily be adapted (probably by making totally new-but-actually-the-same items, not actually converting the existing ones to it for logistics reasons).
If they were just one-off art pieces (not edited to fit different breeds), it would be a low-effort way to spruce up moderns AND ancients (and hopefully permababies) and be a nice compromise between people who want something extra for ancients while still reducing the associated work load of new breeds (ancient and modern).
Plus they could probably expand the type of items beyond just 'apparel'. If they wanted to add, say, a desk item, that would be odd as apparel - but totally reasonable as a foreground item (or something along those lines - I don't know how many people want to sit their dragon behind a desk lol). Lots of cool possibilities.
Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
Also DA. Foreground or even simple background items would be amazing. Treasure/coin piles. Chests. Flower pots. Clouds. Flight themed environment pieces - snow drifts, crystal shards, broken pillars. Cauldrons, potion bottles, camp fires. Crates, piles of scrolls. Baskets of yarn balls with knitting needles. Coli foreground items - bamboo, bubbles, vines. There are so many directions they could go with it.
Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
Permababies are definitely a good point (and could be handled the same way as ancients, eventually, with similar coding). Considering things like pets, the NotN book piles, and the new achievement shop treasure hoards that already exist as apparel, I wouldn't consider it particularly weird to have any of the things you describe classified as such either, but I'd love to see them somehow as well. (I think pretty much anything would need to be pose-adapted to some degree though.)
Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
imo the very fact that your own definition of "very simple and easy to edit in place" apparel became increasingly expansive as you worked through your thoughts… demonstrates the core issue here.
I acknowledged exactly this.
Now, the argument here is usually the 'give a mouse a cookie' one. "If you let people have simple apparel on ancients, they'll clamor for more and more complex stuff! It'll never stop!"
And I'm still mystified why this is always seen as such a dreadful prospect. Pretty much any new release of any type inspires a round of "Hey, that's really cool! But you know what else would be really cool? ........" suggestions and discussion. Unless people are running to California with torches and pitchforks, where's the harm?
What I see as positive about the 'expansion' scenario is that the staff and artists can take it completely at their own pace behind the scenes. Maybe they take note of which sorts of things people seem to be asking for most (pets? emblems?) or maybe not. Yeah, there would always be 'But why isn't [X] ancient-friendly yet?' complaints. Just like there will always be 'Now that there are chickens, I want ducks to be available as apparel!'-type complaints. I think the site would survive it.
Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
NAYRT I feel like people take the "give a mouse a cookie" analogy way too far. Obviously there is a clear line between fitted and non-fitted apparel, I wouldn't see a flowerfall and expect hoods to be added. If players are asking for that, then they've really misunderstood the point of non-fitted apparel. (The beauty of this is staff can just not implement it, if they don't want to). And this doesn't mean that ALL non-fitted apparel has to be added, anyways. I would be happy even if they only added flowerfalls or the seasonal floaties truthfully. Anything to give ancients a little more spice.
"Give a mouse a cookie" is jumping a few steps ahead of the suggestion itself, which ultimately would be left up to staff to decide what they want to add to ancients. The logistics really aren't our problem, but that's always where people get tripped up about it.
You did say that; I'm aware! But I was struck by the fact that even when you were deliberately trying to limit yourself rather than do what you considered to be dreaming big, there was still that scope slippage, you know?
It felt like a pretty on-point example of how the subjective definition of "simple" apparel can make things messy fast. It is also worth noting that my perspective is partially informed by my opinion that "clamoring" for apparel for ancients (without the foreground distinction, see my post above, etc.) is still rude even when the language used is polite, because it's a boundary staff have been so clear about
At the end of the day, it kind of seems like what you want is for ancients to get as much apparel as possible, and that is principle I disagree with because long-term I want staff to continue to try ambitious new styles of breed releases, and being able to define the scope of their own workload (and stick to that definition) is what makes those projects possible to keep in the mix alongside "standard" breed development.
…i'm on mobile and hit "post" early. heck. well you got the long-winded unedited version of my thoughts i guess!
regardless, i just wanted to add that this dialogue has me wondering if our attitudes are informed by "ask vs. guess culture" backgrounds. i admit i'm strongly a guess culture-style, "you should only ask for a thing if you believe the answer WILL be yes" type. while obv i make some exceptions in the context of something like the suggestions forum, i still have a strong instinct towards only sharing ideas i that match my interpretation of what "fits" with the site and with the goals the staff have expressly said they have.
…that's a super long-winded way of saying "maybe this is a me issue" because what makes sense asking a favor from a friend is uh. actually meaningfully different from what makes sense posting in a forum dedicated to Share Your Hopes and Dreams for Features.
Then perhaps that just has to be our agree-to-disagree point then. Staff has gone back on a lot of firm decisions before (eye vials, anyone? and it was before my time, but I think the possibility of the scrying workshop was kiboshed at one point too) - you may see that as them being worn down by relentless unkind harassment, I'd call it them realizing that the playerbase has different preferences/priorities than they thought they did.
In the case of you and me, you obviously enjoy ancients as they are, and I'm genuinely glad for you that you do. As it happens, I don't - I don't have any perma-ancients yet. It's partially design (there hasn't been an ancient breed yet I like as much as my modern faves; for that matter I don't have any obelisks yet either) but partially the frustration of not being able to jazz them up any. A faster pace of new breeds to be similarly stymied by would not make this individual player happy. And again, all we can all do is offer our various individual opinions and let the staff do with those data points what they please.
But for whatever it's worth, I do think there would and should be an eventual stopping point before any body apparel, both because it would require much more actual redrawing than repositioning and tweaking (as could be done with earrings or crowns) and would cause conflicts with body parts various ancients may not have.
"A faster pace of new breeds to be similarly stymied by would not make this individual player happy."
💯 i'm completely in the same boat as you, i would totally have ancient permas if there was just a bit of apparel like flowerfalls. they just seem plain in comparison to my other permas which is a bummer bc some of the genes are incredibly cool. i don't need silks or other more complex apparel, i just want a teeny bit more pizzazz!
Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
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Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
(Anonymous) 2023-07-18 04:35 pm (UTC)(link)even though lots of apparel is really simple (and I'd love stuff like auras and flowerfalls to help fill out the negative space around my ancients in a way skins/accents by definition can't!), the boundary between what is/isn't simple apparel turns out to be way blurrier than the boundary that is "no apparel, period"!
this is something that i think could conceivably be fun to revisit once every flight has an ancient, but along the way i'd much prefer that staff stick to their guns so that they can continue their current/chosen pace with releasing ancient breeds.
ALL THAT SAID, I have seen an iteration of this idea that proposes an entirely new category of (not-)apparel that is "foreground items," which stuff like flowerfalls would be categorized under and which would be allowed on ancients. a built-in division like that is something that i think could totally work long-term.
Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
(Anonymous) 2023-07-19 12:54 am (UTC)(link)If they were just one-off art pieces (not edited to fit different breeds), it would be a low-effort way to spruce up moderns AND ancients (and hopefully permababies) and be a nice compromise between people who want something extra for ancients while still reducing the associated work load of new breeds (ancient and modern).
Plus they could probably expand the type of items beyond just 'apparel'. If they wanted to add, say, a desk item, that would be odd as apparel - but totally reasonable as a foreground item (or something along those lines - I don't know how many people want to sit their dragon behind a desk lol). Lots of cool possibilities.
Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
(Anonymous) 2023-07-19 02:13 am (UTC)(link)Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
(Anonymous) 2023-07-19 03:45 am (UTC)(link)Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
(Anonymous) 2023-07-19 01:20 pm (UTC)(link)Oh no, now I really want separate-from-apparel foreground items, too.
Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
(Anonymous) 2023-07-19 03:29 am (UTC)(link)I acknowledged exactly this.
Now, the argument here is usually the 'give a mouse a cookie' one. "If you let people have simple apparel on ancients, they'll clamor for more and more complex stuff! It'll never stop!"
And I'm still mystified why this is always seen as such a dreadful prospect. Pretty much any new release of any type inspires a round of "Hey, that's really cool! But you know what else would be really cool? ........" suggestions and discussion. Unless people are running to California with torches and pitchforks, where's the harm?
What I see as positive about the 'expansion' scenario is that the staff and artists can take it completely at their own pace behind the scenes. Maybe they take note of which sorts of things people seem to be asking for most (pets? emblems?) or maybe not. Yeah, there would always be 'But why isn't [X] ancient-friendly yet?' complaints. Just like there will always be 'Now that there are chickens, I want ducks to be available as apparel!'-type complaints. I think the site would survive it.
Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
(Anonymous) 2023-07-19 07:16 am (UTC)(link)"Give a mouse a cookie" is jumping a few steps ahead of the suggestion itself, which ultimately would be left up to staff to decide what they want to add to ancients. The logistics really aren't our problem, but that's always where people get tripped up about it.
ayrt
(Anonymous) 2023-07-19 08:42 am (UTC)(link)But I was struck by the fact that even when you were deliberately trying to limit yourself rather than do what you considered to be dreaming big, there was still that scope slippage, you know?
It felt like a pretty on-point example of how the subjective definition of "simple" apparel can make things messy fast.
It is also worth noting that my perspective is partially informed by my opinion that "clamoring" for apparel for ancients (without the foreground distinction, see my post above, etc.) is still rude even when the language used is polite, because it's a boundary staff have been so clear about
At the end of the day, it kind of seems like what you want is for ancients to get as much apparel as possible, and that is principle I disagree with because long-term I want staff to continue to try ambitious new styles of breed releases, and being able to define the scope of their own workload (and stick to that definition) is what makes those projects possible to keep in the mix alongside "standard" breed development.
sa
(Anonymous) 2023-07-19 08:57 am (UTC)(link)well you got the long-winded unedited version of my thoughts i guess!
regardless, i just wanted to add that this dialogue has me wondering if our attitudes are informed by "ask vs. guess culture" backgrounds.
i admit i'm strongly a guess culture-style, "you should only ask for a thing if you believe the answer WILL be yes" type. while obv i make some exceptions in the context of something like the suggestions forum, i still have a strong instinct towards only sharing ideas i that match my interpretation of what "fits" with the site and with the goals the staff have expressly said they have.
…that's a super long-winded way of saying "maybe this is a me issue" because what makes sense asking a favor from a friend is uh. actually meaningfully different from what makes sense posting in a forum dedicated to Share Your Hopes and Dreams for Features.
Re: ayrt
(Anonymous) 2023-07-19 09:15 am (UTC)(link)In the case of you and me, you obviously enjoy ancients as they are, and I'm genuinely glad for you that you do. As it happens, I don't - I don't have any perma-ancients yet. It's partially design (there hasn't been an ancient breed yet I like as much as my modern faves; for that matter I don't have any obelisks yet either) but partially the frustration of not being able to jazz them up any. A faster pace of new breeds to be similarly stymied by would not make this individual player happy. And again, all we can all do is offer our various individual opinions and let the staff do with those data points what they please.
But for whatever it's worth, I do think there would and should be an eventual stopping point before any body apparel, both because it would require much more actual redrawing than repositioning and tweaking (as could be done with earrings or crowns) and would cause conflicts with body parts various ancients may not have.
Re: ayrt
(Anonymous) 2023-07-20 09:28 pm (UTC)(link)"A faster pace of new breeds to be similarly stymied by would not make this individual player happy."
💯 i'm completely in the same boat as you, i would totally have ancient permas if there was just a bit of apparel like flowerfalls. they just seem plain in comparison to my other permas which is a bummer bc some of the genes are incredibly cool. i don't need silks or other more complex apparel, i just want a teeny bit more pizzazz!
Re: Because I'm bored and haven't stirred the 'Ancients should get non-fitted apparel' pot lately
(Anonymous) 2023-07-19 03:36 pm (UTC)(link)