But that's not what OP said- and I promise I'm not trying to nitpick semantics, but this just seems like someone trying to set a boundary. Is it really fair to assume every person who says something along the lines of "Please don't call me queer, I prefer the term lesbian" is dogwhistling? How are they supposed to set that boundary without saying anything remotely along the lines of that?
I feel like when we apply "x is a dogwhistle" beyond what the original phrase was we have to be mindful of when we are going so far, to the point where we're applying it to people who are in fact the victims of the group we're saying they are. A close friend of mine has had people call her a terf for simply requesting that people not call her (her personally) queer -nothing more- and she's a trans lesbian. It's fine if you're just pointing it out, as you say, but other people very quickly latched onto other, entirely unrelated things as "evidence". Idk if my opinion will effect anyone but I feel like our kneejerk reaction shouldn't be to demonize fellow community members. Obviously if someone shows you who they really are, believe them, but I feel like it's disingenous to say things like "well I'm just pointing it out" when there's an obvious accusation behind stating someone is using a terf dogwhistle like that.
Ofc you don't have to agree with me, it's just my opinion and all that but I don't think we should be tearing each other to pieces over little things like this instead of just like. Talking to each other.
I would like to point out that the op didn't say that they didn't want to be called queer, if we're going to argue semantics or the lack thereof. They didn't want to be called the "q-slur," which is what I find insulting and disturbing. Not the fact that they don't want to use it/have it applied to them.
If someone doesn't want to be called queer, that's fine. Perfectly valid and you do you. We should be able to use or not use whatever labels we want. But q-slur is rejecting *my* identity. It's saying to me that it's a gross word and I'm gross for wanting to use it. To apply queer as a label for me and the queer community in general, not the person who doesn't want to use it.
So, yes, I get a little defensive and upset over that, which I feel is a reasonable reaction. And it does make me wonder/worry what other ideas this person holds, because ideas and beliefs do not exist in a vacuum. Do I think they're a terf? No, not without real proof. But their phrasing *is* a terf dogwhistle whether they intended it that way or not. So I'm going to be wary of them and point out to my friends why I am doing so.
Alright, I respect that. I personally don't view people censoring themselves by referring to it as q-slur instead of queer to be an attack on others because they're policing their own language about their own identity rather than anyone else's (for example, I would disagree if someone the word genderqueer if referring to someone else as that's very disrespectful). However I completely understand why you might dislike the term even if it's not being used in reference to you. I probably shouldn't continue this kind of discussion on here since this is a FR drama comm, but I appreciate your insight!
My experience with the q-slur crowd is, even if they are not terfs, they've decided that this is the Worst Word Ever and completely unreclaimable. They aren't saying don't use it on them, they're saying don't use it at all. I've rarely run into a person who uses q-slur that doesn't think like that, and think that people using it are either ignorant and in need of education. Or terrible people (and then the accusations of other, truly bad, things starts). This is my lived experience, so it does not apply universally, of course. Maybe I just hang out in the wrong corners of the internet.
Thank you for trying to understand my position here, and for being so civil. If it helps, I do understand your position on it, and would love it to be the true and correct one. It would make the world that much lovelier. I wish you all the best, but I think, like you, I will be ending my part in the discussion here
I wasn't gonna continue, but I just wanted to say I'm so sorry that's been your experience. I've met a lot of really lovely people who are just personally uncomfortable with the word and I really hope you meet nicer people in the future. For what it's worth from one stranger on the internet, you aren't a terrible person for using the word for yourself and I wish you all the best in finding a loving community!
Weirdly enough I’ve had the opposite running into “You ARE queer whether you like it or not :)” types whenever I ask not to be called that. Like yes im trans and hence LGBTQ+ but I don’t want to be called queer. “Whether you like it or not” yeah that’s the point, they’ll respect my pronouns but not the fact that I don’t want that one word used on me? Then they start going on spiels about wanting to eat my kneecaps and sending DMs like QUEER QUEER QUEER QUEER QUEER.
this is something i dont understand and i guess since this conversation is happening this might be an opportunity for me to understand it so sorry for hopping on here. I don't like queer being applied to myself, a gay man, for many reasons, but i also will call myself fag and my friends faggots, whatever we do as faggy etc. To me this seems similar to how others use queer, reclaiming something and taking its power away/rejecting being 'one of the good ones,' but i would not consider it insulting to my identity as a fag for someone else to say 'dont call me the f-slur,' what is it that makes it rejecting of your identity to recognize the word as something that is recognized as a slur?
Lesbian who very casually reclaims the word dyke here and agreed with this 100%, someone saying "Don't call me the d-slur" isn't a personal attack to me or other people in my boat.
ayrt that's very valid and i'm glad you're bringing this perspective bc one of the biggest things that worries me in activist movements is people tearing each other apart. i think there is enough oddness in this incidence that it makes the OP suspicious.
this might be veering into semantic nitpicking as well but i think things just ARE dogwhistles regardless of who's using them or what context they're using them in. for example, 88 is a nazi dogwhistle. this does NOT mean that people born in 1988 who use the numbers in their username are all nazis, because we can use context clues to determine whether it's being used as a dogwhistle by that person or not.
lesbians specifically saying "q-slur" instead of queer and using the phrasing structure of "lesbian, not q-slur" is an even stronger dogwhistle than 88. i say "stronger" because the vast majority of people saying 88 do not intend any nazi context, but i would say in a significant percentage of incidences of people saying "lesbian, not q-slur," it is being used as a dogwhistle. like i said in another comment, it is so common that it's a popular terf t-shirt slogan.
the "strength" of this dogwhistle is also why i don't feel thaaaat bad that there's an accusation attached to pointing out that it's a dogwhistle. the fact that this person used that specific phrasing and made it the very first thing in their profile is suspicious.
"How are they supposed to set that boundary without saying anything remotely along the lines of that?"
this is a good question, and one i thought of as well. i guess i just have to wonder how many times it comes up, so that the person feels like it has to be the very first line on their profile.
as one of the tumblr links someone else posted says, when i say "the queer community" i am talking about people who identify as queer. it does not include people who do not identify as queer. i can see it coming up in occasional dialogues, for example when i'm talking to someone and say "it's nice to talk to other queer people," thereby implying they are also queer. so in theory someone might want to preempt that situation.
but again, i have ask -- why did the person choose to make it the very first thing on their profile? is it truly happening so often to them that it's such a priority? maybe! but it's still weird. wouldn't it be weird if someone just put "eighty-eight" as the first thing in their profile? the number by itself is perfectly innocuous. but why would they put it first?
if they said something like "note: i have personal trauma around the word qu*** and prefer not to be referred to with it, thanks" somewhere later in their profile i wouldn't consider it suspicious at all. so there is a way to do it while lessening its dogwhistle-ness.
I was kinkinda hoping to avoid this flavor of discourse but since we're down this road anyway, might as well state something for the record that muddies the waters even more:
There absolutely is a segment of people who react to any request not to call someone queer - even phrased poliely as in your example - as a boundry not worth respecting. It's happened to me, in fact! (I'm not triggered by 'queer' but its not something i'm jazzed about people i dont know well calling me either) but some people have acted like me saying "hey i don't like being called queer actually" is a personal attack.
So while i understand terfs do use the phrase, and the wariness, i can also (and have seen) see similar blunt phrases coming from non-terfs who've had their boundries stomped on too many times before and are sick of being nice
I understand where you're coming from, but it's kind of hard for me to wrap my head around. If I put myself in their perspective, I tend to think kind of like "If I were uncomfortable with this word, and had politely asked people in the past, and they did not respect it to begin with, I would definitely slowly be less polite/meek and more front and center and assertive about it!" From my perspective I feel like if someone has something like that front and center in their profile, I would assume it's more someone trying to help someone to see a boundary they've had stepped on over and over. But honestly I do understand what you're saying and I appreciate your perspective on it, sorry for all the walls of text lol. I should probably stop going back and forth since this is an FR drama comm and not meant for this kind of discussion so I hope you have a good night!
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anonrerising2022-08-02 07:34 pm
Re: not trying to stir anything
(Anonymous) 2022-10-16 07:36 pm (UTC)(link)But that's not what OP said- and I promise I'm not trying to nitpick semantics, but this just seems like someone trying to set a boundary. Is it really fair to assume every person who says something along the lines of "Please don't call me queer, I prefer the term lesbian" is dogwhistling? How are they supposed to set that boundary without saying anything remotely along the lines of that?
I feel like when we apply "x is a dogwhistle" beyond what the original phrase was we have to be mindful of when we are going so far, to the point where we're applying it to people who are in fact the victims of the group we're saying they are. A close friend of mine has had people call her a terf for simply requesting that people not call her (her personally) queer -nothing more- and she's a trans lesbian. It's fine if you're just pointing it out, as you say, but other people very quickly latched onto other, entirely unrelated things as "evidence". Idk if my opinion will effect anyone but I feel like our kneejerk reaction shouldn't be to demonize fellow community members. Obviously if someone shows you who they really are, believe them, but I feel like it's disingenous to say things like "well I'm just pointing it out" when there's an obvious accusation behind stating someone is using a terf dogwhistle like that.
Ofc you don't have to agree with me, it's just my opinion and all that but I don't think we should be tearing each other to pieces over little things like this instead of just like. Talking to each other.
Re: not trying to stir anything
(Anonymous) 2022-10-16 08:15 pm (UTC)(link)If someone doesn't want to be called queer, that's fine. Perfectly valid and you do you. We should be able to use or not use whatever labels we want. But q-slur is rejecting *my* identity. It's saying to me that it's a gross word and I'm gross for wanting to use it. To apply queer as a label for me and the queer community in general, not the person who doesn't want to use it.
So, yes, I get a little defensive and upset over that, which I feel is a reasonable reaction. And it does make me wonder/worry what other ideas this person holds, because ideas and beliefs do not exist in a vacuum. Do I think they're a terf? No, not without real proof. But their phrasing *is* a terf dogwhistle whether they intended it that way or not. So I'm going to be wary of them and point out to my friends why I am doing so.
Re: not trying to stir anything
(Anonymous) 2022-10-17 12:59 am (UTC)(link)Alright, I respect that. I personally don't view people censoring themselves by referring to it as q-slur instead of queer to be an attack on others because they're policing their own language about their own identity rather than anyone else's (for example, I would disagree if someone the word genderqueer if referring to someone else as that's very disrespectful). However I completely understand why you might dislike the term even if it's not being used in reference to you. I probably shouldn't continue this kind of discussion on here since this is a FR drama comm, but I appreciate your insight!
Re: not trying to stir anything
(Anonymous) 2022-10-18 12:09 am (UTC)(link)My experience with the q-slur crowd is, even if they are not terfs, they've decided that this is the Worst Word Ever and completely unreclaimable. They aren't saying don't use it on them, they're saying don't use it at all. I've rarely run into a person who uses q-slur that doesn't think like that, and think that people using it are either ignorant and in need of education. Or terrible people (and then the accusations of other, truly bad, things starts). This is my lived experience, so it does not apply universally, of course. Maybe I just hang out in the wrong corners of the internet.
Thank you for trying to understand my position here, and for being so civil. If it helps, I do understand your position on it, and would love it to be the true and correct one. It would make the world that much lovelier. I wish you all the best, but I think, like you, I will be ending my part in the discussion here
Re: not trying to stir anything
(Anonymous) 2022-10-19 11:36 pm (UTC)(link)I wasn't gonna continue, but I just wanted to say I'm so sorry that's been your experience. I've met a lot of really lovely people who are just personally uncomfortable with the word and I really hope you meet nicer people in the future. For what it's worth from one stranger on the internet, you aren't a terrible person for using the word for yourself and I wish you all the best in finding a loving community!
Re: not trying to stir anything
(Anonymous) 2022-10-20 01:54 pm (UTC)(link)It’s kind of pathetic
Re: not trying to stir anything
(Anonymous) 2022-10-20 02:00 pm (UTC)(link)There's people on both sides really fanning the flames here, it didn't become such a Discourse topic out of nowhere.
Re: not trying to stir anything
(Anonymous) 2022-10-17 01:23 pm (UTC)(link)this is something i dont understand and i guess since this conversation is happening this might be an opportunity for me to understand it so sorry for hopping on here. I don't like queer being applied to myself, a gay man, for many reasons, but i also will call myself fag and my friends faggots, whatever we do as faggy etc. To me this seems similar to how others use queer, reclaiming something and taking its power away/rejecting being 'one of the good ones,' but i would not consider it insulting to my identity as a fag for someone else to say 'dont call me the f-slur,' what is it that makes it rejecting of your identity to recognize the word as something that is recognized as a slur?
Re: not trying to stir anything
(Anonymous) 2022-10-19 05:02 pm (UTC)(link)Re: not trying to stir anything
(Anonymous) 2022-10-16 11:29 pm (UTC)(link)this might be veering into semantic nitpicking as well but i think things just ARE dogwhistles regardless of who's using them or what context they're using them in. for example, 88 is a nazi dogwhistle. this does NOT mean that people born in 1988 who use the numbers in their username are all nazis, because we can use context clues to determine whether it's being used as a dogwhistle by that person or not.
lesbians specifically saying "q-slur" instead of queer and using the phrasing structure of "lesbian, not q-slur" is an even stronger dogwhistle than 88. i say "stronger" because the vast majority of people saying 88 do not intend any nazi context, but i would say in a significant percentage of incidences of people saying "lesbian, not q-slur," it is being used as a dogwhistle. like i said in another comment, it is so common that it's a popular terf t-shirt slogan.
the "strength" of this dogwhistle is also why i don't feel thaaaat bad that there's an accusation attached to pointing out that it's a dogwhistle. the fact that this person used that specific phrasing and made it the very first thing in their profile is suspicious.
"How are they supposed to set that boundary without saying anything remotely along the lines of that?"
this is a good question, and one i thought of as well. i guess i just have to wonder how many times it comes up, so that the person feels like it has to be the very first line on their profile.
as one of the tumblr links someone else posted says, when i say "the queer community" i am talking about people who identify as queer. it does not include people who do not identify as queer. i can see it coming up in occasional dialogues, for example when i'm talking to someone and say "it's nice to talk to other queer people," thereby implying they are also queer. so in theory someone might want to preempt that situation.
but again, i have ask -- why did the person choose to make it the very first thing on their profile? is it truly happening so often to them that it's such a priority? maybe! but it's still weird. wouldn't it be weird if someone just put "eighty-eight" as the first thing in their profile? the number by itself is perfectly innocuous. but why would they put it first?
if they said something like "note: i have personal trauma around the word qu*** and prefer not to be referred to with it, thanks" somewhere later in their profile i wouldn't consider it suspicious at all. so there is a way to do it while lessening its dogwhistle-ness.
Re: not trying to stir anything
(Anonymous) 2022-10-17 12:20 am (UTC)(link)I was kinkinda hoping to avoid this flavor of discourse but since we're down this road anyway, might as well state something for the record that muddies the waters even more:
There absolutely is a segment of people who react to any request not to call someone queer - even phrased poliely as in your example - as a boundry not worth respecting. It's happened to me, in fact! (I'm not triggered by 'queer' but its not something i'm jazzed about people i dont know well calling me either) but some people have acted like me saying "hey i don't like being called queer actually" is a personal attack.
So while i understand terfs do use the phrase, and the wariness, i can also (and have seen) see similar blunt phrases coming from non-terfs who've had their boundries stomped on too many times before and are sick of being nice
Re: not trying to stir anything
(Anonymous) 2022-10-17 01:07 am (UTC)(link)I understand where you're coming from, but it's kind of hard for me to wrap my head around. If I put myself in their perspective, I tend to think kind of like "If I were uncomfortable with this word, and had politely asked people in the past, and they did not respect it to begin with, I would definitely slowly be less polite/meek and more front and center and assertive about it!" From my perspective I feel like if someone has something like that front and center in their profile, I would assume it's more someone trying to help someone to see a boundary they've had stepped on over and over. But honestly I do understand what you're saying and I appreciate your perspective on it, sorry for all the walls of text lol. I should probably stop going back and forth since this is an FR drama comm and not meant for this kind of discussion so I hope you have a good night!