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Same. Honestly, I think 4chan and KF bastardized an odd form of expression used by people online because they realized that they could hurt multiple groups by doing it for laughs, and it lingers. Now, anyone that did it innocently is tied to 4chan and transphobia.
NAYRT
I mean, are they though? I get how some people might have their perspective of kinning soured by those malicious instances but it's a bit of a stretch to say they're now tied to 4chan and transphobia.
I mean, are they though? I get how some people might have their perspective of kinning soured by those malicious instances but it's a bit of a stretch to say they're now tied to 4chan and transphobia.
Ayrt
Holy wall of text batman, I guess I have more data on this than I thought. Even with a lot of the screenshots I was looking for gone missing. :/
Sorry you experienced that nonny. I'm kind of boggled that people have somehow forgotten 4chan and KF's involvement in this, as it was pretty fucking common knowledge last I looked. Nonnies above had some valid questions about the origins of kinning and confusion over why a lot of people view it as transphobic, so I'll answer that here as well.
While there was definitely precedent for kinning before 4chan/KF began using the concept in a transphobic astroturfing campaign, it was originally a much more niche set of beliefs most often found in small communities that were often adjacent to the furry fandom. This is the Therian/Otherkin community I'm talking about here, their definition of 'otherkin' was and still is pretty different than the idea of 'kinning a fictional character'. A lot of the community was somewhat insular, and my understanding is that on the whole, members generally discouraged people from using those terms outside Therian/Otherkin community spaces.
"A lot of these animal/object kin identities have origins in 4chan trolling. IIRC the first incident was using "clovergender" as a way to sneak pedophilia and troll Tumblr and Twitter trans communities, and the other kin stuff followed suit."
Yep. This is one of the more well documented examples of KF farms doing active astroturfing to on tumblr that we have, though of course there were a hell of a lot more. I think more of the kin accounts and concepts created by these people were about painting transgender people as delusional and wanting to 'become animals/demons', than pedophiles, but there was eventually a push towards making accounts where the "user" was kin with various underage fictional characters and then would immediately use the account to solicit minors for SRP. BTW fuuuck imgur for deleting the screenshots someone had collected of this back in 2016, fuck you imgur.
Slight tangent, but there was a later version of this with the same "transphobic people are predatory" rhetoric that popped up somewhere between 2016-2020, where suddenly it was 'I'm mentally 16 but I'm actually 25...' Slightly different thing and similar situation to kin, where once the idea was out there via astroturfing, there were some more innocent fans on tumblr and twitter that just... thought the idea of saying you were mentally a minor in your 20s was appealing. (This is, uh much more problematic than identifying with Sans the Skeleton at 25, for obvious reasons. While I'm somewhat sympathetic with the idea of someone not feeling their age and thinking that are actually a minor at 25, I also have some really gross stories of people using this idea to justify having absolutely no boundaries with minors in discord. Anyways, back to kinning.)
I think the majority of the kinning astroturf campaign from 4chan turned into slightly less malicious but still transphobic trolling 'for the lolz', like plantkin, real person kin, ect, and by this time the idea had become somewhat popularized to the point where a lot of younger users adopted the idea wholesale.
Nonny above with this comment:
"Same. Honestly, I think 4chan and KF bastardized an odd form of expression used by people online because they realized that they could hurt multiple groups by doing it for laughs, and it lingers. Now, anyone that did it innocently is tied to 4chan and transphobia."
You are correct that 4chan and KF were interested in hurting multiple groups, including anyone they saw as furry/autistic/queer, but the kin astroturfing campaign used a lot of its rhetoric specifically to attack and delegitimize trans people. I think a lot of people just forgot that 4chan and KF's transphobic trolling is why and how this extremely niche concept was suddenly exploding on tumblr in 2014-15, and with a pretty different definition than the one the established Otherkin community had been using for over a decade.
There's a really decent lecture online from 2013 (note the date) that goes over the online culture and ideas of Otherkin/Therians. This video has a lot of in-depth documentation, empathy and curiosity, and I highly recommend it to anyone that's curious about the history of kinning/otherkin/therians:
https://youtu.be/ZMEkuOW5pjs?si=Nys4jln6lqea0S8d
If you don't feel like watching the video but want a quick look at how the Therian/Otherkin community in 2013 was discussing and thinking about these type of identities and beliefs, the comment section on this video is a pretty good window into that.
I wasn't in any of these communities but afaik this lecture is considered to be a well researched and accurate description of what the Therian and Otherkin communities were like in 2013, and the experiences of the people that were using these terms. From all my interactions with them and what I've read, (though of course the community is not a monolith, you're going to find some disagreement) on the whole they were and continue to be pretty fucking unhappy with the fact that 'Otherkin", and "Kinning" suddenly exploded to widespread use on tumblr as a result of transphobic astroturfing, and consider the casual use of 'kinning' to be an insulting bastardization of their own beliefs. (Take of that what you will.)
I've learned about this mostly from talking to people in the community, but there's also plenty of documentation about it, here's one example:
https://forums.therian-guide.com/Thread-Therian-Otherkin-Terms
Last updated 2018:
"Otherkin: A person that identifies as being, in part or whole (non-physically), one or more non-human creatures or beings on an integral and personal level. Otherkin cannot choose their kintypes. Otherkin is also an umbrella term for otherkin, therians and fictiokin."
"Coping Linkers: People who use non-human entities as a way to cope with depression, anxiety, and general day-to-day troubles. They are not considered the same as otherkin or therians despite vague similarities, as they have chosen their identities. The name was changed from copingkin to copinglinkers to cement that they are not associated with the otherkin community.
Theriotype: What a therian identifies as being on a spiritual and personal level. A therian may identify as one or more animals as their theriotype. E.g. a therian may have a wolf theriotype, meaning they identify as a wolf.
Kintype: What an otherkin identifies as E.g. Dragonkin means identifying as a dragon, wolfkin as a wolf.
Kin: Shortened form of Otherkin, not a verb. You can’t ‘kin’ something, and ‘kinning’ isn’t a thing. “My kin/theriotype is (x)”, or “I am (x) kin” are correct ways of phrasing it. “I otherkin across the street” makes no sense."
Terms and ideas of course continue to evolve, and there are plenty of people that are either unaware of 4chan's extremely transphobic involvement in popularizing kinning fictional characters on tumblr, or just don't care. Which... honestly, like, fine? Ideas and language evolve, and if you're not using it to maliciously bully people or use it to try and convince other people that trans people are delusional, I guess I don't really think you're doing a great harm to anybody by using the term. It's just been a very, very recent tool of transphobic rhetoric, and the community that it came from less than 10 years ago is also extremely unhappy with people using it causally as a shorthand for having an extreme attachment to fictional characters such as Sans the Skeleton/ thinking you're Sans the Skeleton on the astral plane. (Take your pick.)
Nonny above with this comment:
I mean, are they though? I get how some people might have their perspective of kinning soured by those malicious instances but it's a bit of a stretch to say they're now tied to 4chan and transphobia.
Sorry, but even if you are unaware of the history behind it, saying that you're "kinning a fictional character" is absolutely, definitely tied and strongly associated with 4chan and transphobia, and that's what a lot of people will think of upon seeing it. I'm not equating this to someone putting "I'm kin with Sans the Skeleton" being actively transphobic, just that the recent history behind it absolutely is. It's... context.
Holy wall of text batman, I guess I have more data on this than I thought. Even with a lot of the screenshots I was looking for gone missing. :/
Sorry you experienced that nonny. I'm kind of boggled that people have somehow forgotten 4chan and KF's involvement in this, as it was pretty fucking common knowledge last I looked. Nonnies above had some valid questions about the origins of kinning and confusion over why a lot of people view it as transphobic, so I'll answer that here as well.
While there was definitely precedent for kinning before 4chan/KF began using the concept in a transphobic astroturfing campaign, it was originally a much more niche set of beliefs most often found in small communities that were often adjacent to the furry fandom. This is the Therian/Otherkin community I'm talking about here, their definition of 'otherkin' was and still is pretty different than the idea of 'kinning a fictional character'. A lot of the community was somewhat insular, and my understanding is that on the whole, members generally discouraged people from using those terms outside Therian/Otherkin community spaces.
"A lot of these animal/object kin identities have origins in 4chan trolling. IIRC the first incident was using "clovergender" as a way to sneak pedophilia and troll Tumblr and Twitter trans communities, and the other kin stuff followed suit."
Yep. This is one of the more well documented examples of KF farms doing active astroturfing to on tumblr that we have, though of course there were a hell of a lot more. I think more of the kin accounts and concepts created by these people were about painting transgender people as delusional and wanting to 'become animals/demons', than pedophiles, but there was eventually a push towards making accounts where the "user" was kin with various underage fictional characters and then would immediately use the account to solicit minors for SRP. BTW fuuuck imgur for deleting the screenshots someone had collected of this back in 2016, fuck you imgur.
Slight tangent, but there was a later version of this with the same "transphobic people are predatory" rhetoric that popped up somewhere between 2016-2020, where suddenly it was 'I'm mentally 16 but I'm actually 25...' Slightly different thing and similar situation to kin, where once the idea was out there via astroturfing, there were some more innocent fans on tumblr and twitter that just... thought the idea of saying you were mentally a minor in your 20s was appealing. (This is, uh much more problematic than identifying with Sans the Skeleton at 25, for obvious reasons. While I'm somewhat sympathetic with the idea of someone not feeling their age and thinking that are actually a minor at 25, I also have some really gross stories of people using this idea to justify having absolutely no boundaries with minors in discord. Anyways, back to kinning.)
I think the majority of the kinning astroturf campaign from 4chan turned into slightly less malicious but still transphobic trolling 'for the lolz', like plantkin, real person kin, ect, and by this time the idea had become somewhat popularized to the point where a lot of younger users adopted the idea wholesale.
Nonny above with this comment:
"Same. Honestly, I think 4chan and KF bastardized an odd form of expression used by people online because they realized that they could hurt multiple groups by doing it for laughs, and it lingers. Now, anyone that did it innocently is tied to 4chan and transphobia."
You are correct that 4chan and KF were interested in hurting multiple groups, including anyone they saw as furry/autistic/queer, but the kin astroturfing campaign used a lot of its rhetoric specifically to attack and delegitimize trans people. I think a lot of people just forgot that 4chan and KF's transphobic trolling is why and how this extremely niche concept was suddenly exploding on tumblr in 2014-15, and with a pretty different definition than the one the established Otherkin community had been using for over a decade.
There's a really decent lecture online from 2013 (note the date) that goes over the online culture and ideas of Otherkin/Therians. This video has a lot of in-depth documentation, empathy and curiosity, and I highly recommend it to anyone that's curious about the history of kinning/otherkin/therians:
https://youtu.be/ZMEkuOW5pjs?si=Nys4jln6lqea0S8d
If you don't feel like watching the video but want a quick look at how the Therian/Otherkin community in 2013 was discussing and thinking about these type of identities and beliefs, the comment section on this video is a pretty good window into that.
I wasn't in any of these communities but afaik this lecture is considered to be a well researched and accurate description of what the Therian and Otherkin communities were like in 2013, and the experiences of the people that were using these terms. From all my interactions with them and what I've read, (though of course the community is not a monolith, you're going to find some disagreement) on the whole they were and continue to be pretty fucking unhappy with the fact that 'Otherkin", and "Kinning" suddenly exploded to widespread use on tumblr as a result of transphobic astroturfing, and consider the casual use of 'kinning' to be an insulting bastardization of their own beliefs. (Take of that what you will.)
I've learned about this mostly from talking to people in the community, but there's also plenty of documentation about it, here's one example:
https://forums.therian-guide.com/Thread-Therian-Otherkin-Terms
Last updated 2018:
"Otherkin: A person that identifies as being, in part or whole (non-physically), one or more non-human creatures or beings on an integral and personal level. Otherkin cannot choose their kintypes. Otherkin is also an umbrella term for otherkin, therians and fictiokin."
"Coping Linkers: People who use non-human entities as a way to cope with depression, anxiety, and general day-to-day troubles. They are not considered the same as otherkin or therians despite vague similarities, as they have chosen their identities. The name was changed from copingkin to copinglinkers to cement that they are not associated with the otherkin community.
Theriotype: What a therian identifies as being on a spiritual and personal level. A therian may identify as one or more animals as their theriotype. E.g. a therian may have a wolf theriotype, meaning they identify as a wolf.
Kintype: What an otherkin identifies as E.g. Dragonkin means identifying as a dragon, wolfkin as a wolf.
Kin: Shortened form of Otherkin, not a verb. You can’t ‘kin’ something, and ‘kinning’ isn’t a thing. “My kin/theriotype is (x)”, or “I am (x) kin” are correct ways of phrasing it. “I otherkin across the street” makes no sense."
Terms and ideas of course continue to evolve, and there are plenty of people that are either unaware of 4chan's extremely transphobic involvement in popularizing kinning fictional characters on tumblr, or just don't care. Which... honestly, like, fine? Ideas and language evolve, and if you're not using it to maliciously bully people or use it to try and convince other people that trans people are delusional, I guess I don't really think you're doing a great harm to anybody by using the term. It's just been a very, very recent tool of transphobic rhetoric, and the community that it came from less than 10 years ago is also extremely unhappy with people using it causally as a shorthand for having an extreme attachment to fictional characters such as Sans the Skeleton/ thinking you're Sans the Skeleton on the astral plane. (Take your pick.)
Nonny above with this comment:
I mean, are they though? I get how some people might have their perspective of kinning soured by those malicious instances but it's a bit of a stretch to say they're now tied to 4chan and transphobia.
Sorry, but even if you are unaware of the history behind it, saying that you're "kinning a fictional character" is absolutely, definitely tied and strongly associated with 4chan and transphobia, and that's what a lot of people will think of upon seeing it. I'm not equating this to someone putting "I'm kin with Sans the Skeleton" being actively transphobic, just that the recent history behind it absolutely is. It's... context.
NA
i had no idea about any of this. this was a really interesting morning read tbh, and it kind of is a relief to see the "real" otherkin community's stance on it
i had no idea about any of this. this was a really interesting morning read tbh, and it kind of is a relief to see the "real" otherkin community's stance on it
SA
Looking at the 2018 Therian forum post and spotting some conflicting things, which honestly I'm not all that surprised about, but probably worth mentioning.
"Fictionkin" is and continues to be a subject of pretty contentious debate afaik, but was used in and outside of the community enough for it to at least get an entry in this 2018 post by a member of a therian forum here:
"Fictionkin: A person that identifies as being, in part or whole (non-physically), one or more species and/or characters shown in media on an integral and personal level. Some fictionkin are character-specific, such as Sonic the Hedgehog, while others identify as a fictional species, like a non-specific Chao or a Pokémon. Fictionkin cannot choose their kintypes.
Kinnie: Used derogatorily toward younger members of the Alterhuman community. Used on Tumblr as a synonym to Otherkin.
Tumblrkin: A person usually from Tumblr who has done no research on otherkinity, and claims to be kin just for the ‘aesthetic’, to jump on the bandwagon, or otherwise. They usually have kintype lists of 100+ and the term is used derogatorily.
Species Dysphoria: The experience of dysphoria (discomfort, depression, anxiety or similar based around one’s self) associated with the feeling that one's body is of the wrong species. Not all therians and otherkin experience this."
---------------------------
"User ArchieAce: Edited. Any more problems and I'd love to fix them! I don't experience these myself nor do astral spiritual work, but an aural shift is your aura changing form (unsure how that is done or detected), a spiritual shift is your astral body changing, e.g. on the astral plane, while a mental shift is thinking alike their species/whatever they are."
By this person's definition and what they've written on their guide, using the term fictionkin to describe thinking you're Sans the Skeleton on the astral plane would be accurate, and not necessarily offensive to them. I'm not 100% sure if this is because of cultural shift or if it was a subsection of this community that was originally more accepting of it.
I find it interesting to see the overt negative opinions they have of people using the term specifically on tumblr, and I have a feeling whoever made this guide wasn't as aware of the 4chan involvement. You can also get a glimpse of why 4chan picked this stuff as a tool for transphobic rhetoric in the first place, specifically with the entries that borrow terms such as dysphoria.
Looking at the 2018 Therian forum post and spotting some conflicting things, which honestly I'm not all that surprised about, but probably worth mentioning.
"Fictionkin" is and continues to be a subject of pretty contentious debate afaik, but was used in and outside of the community enough for it to at least get an entry in this 2018 post by a member of a therian forum here:
"Fictionkin: A person that identifies as being, in part or whole (non-physically), one or more species and/or characters shown in media on an integral and personal level. Some fictionkin are character-specific, such as Sonic the Hedgehog, while others identify as a fictional species, like a non-specific Chao or a Pokémon. Fictionkin cannot choose their kintypes.
Kinnie: Used derogatorily toward younger members of the Alterhuman community. Used on Tumblr as a synonym to Otherkin.
Tumblrkin: A person usually from Tumblr who has done no research on otherkinity, and claims to be kin just for the ‘aesthetic’, to jump on the bandwagon, or otherwise. They usually have kintype lists of 100+ and the term is used derogatorily.
Species Dysphoria: The experience of dysphoria (discomfort, depression, anxiety or similar based around one’s self) associated with the feeling that one's body is of the wrong species. Not all therians and otherkin experience this."
---------------------------
"User ArchieAce: Edited. Any more problems and I'd love to fix them! I don't experience these myself nor do astral spiritual work, but an aural shift is your aura changing form (unsure how that is done or detected), a spiritual shift is your astral body changing, e.g. on the astral plane, while a mental shift is thinking alike their species/whatever they are."
By this person's definition and what they've written on their guide, using the term fictionkin to describe thinking you're Sans the Skeleton on the astral plane would be accurate, and not necessarily offensive to them. I'm not 100% sure if this is because of cultural shift or if it was a subsection of this community that was originally more accepting of it.
I find it interesting to see the overt negative opinions they have of people using the term specifically on tumblr, and I have a feeling whoever made this guide wasn't as aware of the 4chan involvement. You can also get a glimpse of why 4chan picked this stuff as a tool for transphobic rhetoric in the first place, specifically with the entries that borrow terms such as dysphoria.
yes, i know we are not entitled to a fest raffle from flights and that people have their lives to live and that it's only been an hour since rollover. no, that will not stop me complaining about fire not having their raffle up yet because i'm impatient.
Their "Just look at Galore/Pipp! They're clearly..." annoyed me, but I don't see anything wrong with genderbending (and/or trans) headcanons for cis characters. It's not the same as misgendering a real person. I mind when it starts to sound like gender essentialism ("I think this male character is a woman because he likes flowers/is nurturing/etc."), and in the same vein, you shouldn't gender- or cisbend(?) canonically trans characters. It's too close to what happens in real life.
Galore is an edge case, I think, because he is not not cis.
Galore is an edge case, I think, because he is not not cis.
they have no raffle, no foddart and no dom watch post... fire please
*Pokes Fire with a stick*
C'mon, do something... :(
C'mon, do something... :(
what's the deal with galore? i never saw anything about it
Decades? Try millennia lol. The Egyptians have been doing therian/kin stuff to the point of making it a religion!
Humans are always gonna be That Way about animals, and honestly, I love it.
Humans are always gonna be That Way about animals, and honestly, I love it.
it's been 9 hours since rollover... is fire ok? are they not gonna have an oof raffle and just go solo for their fest?
as an ember in flight, this is incredibly concerning since we have no idea what's going on and the AA are telling us to be patient
i'm here in my mind being like "yeah this is TOTALLY gonna bode well after last year's fiasco..."
the only thing I can think of is that the organiser is dealing with an emergency but even then, this is worrying since like. there's no backup plans???? ngl this isn't boding well tbh
i'm here in my mind being like "yeah this is TOTALLY gonna bode well after last year's fiasco..."
the only thing I can think of is that the organiser is dealing with an emergency but even then, this is worrying since like. there's no backup plans???? ngl this isn't boding well tbh
When asked what Galore identifies as, the response was "Galore is Galore" and "Galore is a dragon" and that his pronouns are He/Him.
But apparently his art is very feminine to some people so some folks have made up their own headcanons about him, and some folks got really weird about it. The one individual in the pronoun thread said something to the extent of 'Look at her! She's the single most feminine NPC on the site! She *HAS* to be a woman!'
But apparently his art is very feminine to some people so some folks have made up their own headcanons about him, and some folks got really weird about it. The one individual in the pronoun thread said something to the extent of 'Look at her! She's the single most feminine NPC on the site! She *HAS* to be a woman!'
https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/raf/3266086/1
I assume this is gonna be the OOFR? They have been pinged to post for domwatch but haven't done so or have deleted their post after someone else OOF posted on the thread.
I assume this is gonna be the OOFR? They have been pinged to post for domwatch but haven't done so or have deleted their post after someone else OOF posted on the thread.
Galore can be a he/him lesbian as a treat ;)
not having anything up yet is brutal, apollo's curse to that anon who warned us this was gonna happen two months ago
AYRT
Thank you! This was a very informative post. I will be checking out the Therianthropy video. It looks interesting, and it's nice to see someone outside of the group present the topic in a respectful manner.
Astroturfing (re: clovergender) was the word I was looking for to describe the specific behavior. Looking back at my previous post, I'm sorry if what I said earlier conflated transphobic trolling with being otherkin. These are two distinct concepts, but transphobes have appropriated otherkin ideas for nefarious purposes like what you described. They also use these terms to blend in and screenshot private servers they infiltrate for entertainment on KF.
It is a shame that the 2016 imgur album no longer exists, perhaps there is an archive on archive.org or another archival site?
IMO younger people should inform themselves on the history of clovergender, "Attack Helicopter" jokes, predators using "mental age" excuse to sexually harass others, and the new identity stuff that circulates on TikTok (I believe it is also astroturfing). Being informed about how bad faith actors operate and knowing how to avoid them is one way to keep yourself safe online. Maybe the specific terms people nowadays use for their identities are done with innocent intentions, but we can't ignore their history.
Thank you! This was a very informative post. I will be checking out the Therianthropy video. It looks interesting, and it's nice to see someone outside of the group present the topic in a respectful manner.
Astroturfing (re: clovergender) was the word I was looking for to describe the specific behavior. Looking back at my previous post, I'm sorry if what I said earlier conflated transphobic trolling with being otherkin. These are two distinct concepts, but transphobes have appropriated otherkin ideas for nefarious purposes like what you described. They also use these terms to blend in and screenshot private servers they infiltrate for entertainment on KF.
It is a shame that the 2016 imgur album no longer exists, perhaps there is an archive on archive.org or another archival site?
IMO younger people should inform themselves on the history of clovergender, "Attack Helicopter" jokes, predators using "mental age" excuse to sexually harass others, and the new identity stuff that circulates on TikTok (I believe it is also astroturfing). Being informed about how bad faith actors operate and knowing how to avoid them is one way to keep yourself safe online. Maybe the specific terms people nowadays use for their identities are done with innocent intentions, but we can't ignore their history.
oh shit, I hope the organizer ends up being okay though
makes me wonder just how bad their battle is gonna be if their fest is like... this
ayrt
its gonna be a total stomp, surely? like water is so organized and well-oiled. fire is gonna get destroyed
its gonna be a total stomp, surely? like water is so organized and well-oiled. fire is gonna get destroyed
embers - do you know anything? ppl on SMR are really just treating it like juicy drama but i'm worried that something bad happened.
fire might get underdog support tho idk if it'll be e out.
The thread was locked before I saw it, but I really wanted to answer that one. THE most feminine presenting people I know, like outrageously, outspokenly, GLORIOUSLY femme - are all gay men, who identify as men, just femme ones. And I love them all for it. Though they can be as insistent as that poster on what "feminine" really is, which is upsetting for those of us who have been relentlessly mocked over the years for not being the socially-acceptable kind of girls and women :/
The absolute insistence from that poster that the NPCs are OBVIOUSLY this or that "just look at them!", even in contradiction of what the creators intended, was really, really annoying frankly.
The absolute insistence from that poster that the NPCs are OBVIOUSLY this or that "just look at them!", even in contradiction of what the creators intended, was really, really annoying frankly.
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