yeah and apologies if I may have come off as rude in anyway, I forget that not everyone was around or remembers those times(its been a few years a least since I haven't been active in dom in at least 2 and this happened before that) but any reminder of that always rubs me the wrong way just cause of the drama surrounding it. I would give more info if I could but its been so long and I've mostly stopped playing outside of festivals so my memory is just garage :') The only thing I think I can confidently state is I'm fairly certain both times it was Shadow's mother day push which, yeah we have no claim to that even though it's a thing we do yearly, any of the other flights with a female deity could always push. Its just that both times Fire announced like a week or so before with 0 contact with shadow orgs from my understanding. And I think one year it ended with us in second place no matter how hard we tried because we just...were not prepared for a battle at all, not with that size difference. (and I think that year was the first year I was getting into dom and was like my second time doing a push so like...super demoralizing)